[Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
Donovan Arnold
donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:43:45 -0700
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<P>Dale, </P>
<P>You write: "Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending will spiral out of control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then I doubt anything I could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your mind will justify what your heart has already chosen."</P></DIV>
<P>You avoid the Question: <STRONG><U><EM>"Offer a detailed plan of how you would intend to cut the budget and still include the same services for children and educators?"</EM></U></STRONG></P>
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<P>How many times do I have to ask? You think it is already being done, by private schools, then great, go get a copy of the budget of what they do for disabled children, starving children, and children with emotional disabilities. Then compare it to that of a public school. Then you can say, see I told you so.</P>
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<P>I have been in private schools and attended them. They don't have wheelchair access. They don't have teachers to deal with emotionally disturbed children. They don't have Teachers to deal with students that are blind, or deaf, or have a learning disability. They don't have trained professionals to deal with rape victims. They don't have councilors to help students find jobs when they graduate. They don't have sports. They don't have playgrounds many times. They don't have field trips to learn hands on. They don't freely feed the poor students. Many times they don't even have a cafeteria, just tables for kids to eat their lunches they bring from home. They don't have buses. They don't have trouble maker students, they get rid of them. They don't have teachers that speak their mind, they would be fired. They don't have adequate buildings, they are all beat up and old. Many don't have air-conditioning. They rarely have minority students, which add to the cultural l!
earning. They don't have students that are of below average intelligence, they are not allowed in. </P>
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<P><STRONG><U><EM>Here is the question again: Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?</EM></U></STRONG></P>
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<P>Your answer should look something like this:</P>
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<P>The "name of private school" offers the exact same services for disabled students, the poor, and the below average student. All students are allowed to play in the same games and sports of children in the public school, including baseball, soccer, volleyball, hockey, swimming, and football. Counseling and medical services are also provided for the students at this school the same as a public school with professionals having the same level of education and qualifications. The same subjects are taught and to the same or level as the public schools. Transportation is also provided for each child. The school will except what ever student shows up at the door and will treat them the same. We will not push our religious views on the child if you are against it.</P>
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<P>Our budget per child is: (a number less then MSD)</P>
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<P>MSD Budget per child is: </P>
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<P><STRONG><EM><U>This is simple to do Dale! Very basic. If you cannot find "ONE" private school in the United States that provides this and doesn't receive federal and local aid, then you know you have lost this argument. </U></EM></STRONG>If you can provide concrete proof of a school that can and does do this, then you will convince me and I will admit defeat on this issue. But I am willing to bet that you can't find one "Private" school that accepts all students, regardless of who they are, or what problems and disabilities they bring, still provide the same services for them, and still have a budget less then that of MSD. </P>
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<P>I know you will say that you already have. And blah blah blah, but not provide one number or the name of one school in the United states that meets these basic standards are children provide.</P>
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<P>Thanks!</P>
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<P>Donovan J Arnold</P>
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<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: "Dale Courtney" <DALE@COURTNEYS.US>
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<DIV></DIV>>To: <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
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<DIV></DIV>>Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:20:57 -0700
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>Donovan writes:
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<DIV></DIV>> > Once again, you offer statistics and whine to go with it. You offer no
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<DIV></DIV>> > detailed plan to deal with how the public educational system can cut the
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<DIV></DIV>> > budget and NOT cut services for the children and educators.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending will spiral out of
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<DIV></DIV>>control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then I doubt anything I
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<DIV></DIV>>could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your mind will justify what
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<DIV></DIV>>your heart has already chosen.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > >"If Moscow's population were to decrease from 28,000 people to 23,000
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<DIV></DIV>>people
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<DIV></DIV>> > >over the course of 10 years, would you be in favor of increasing
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<DIV></DIV>> > >inflation-adjusted spending by 100% to the fire department, law
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<DIV></DIV>>enforcement,
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<DIV></DIV>> > >road maintenance, parks, sewage maintenance, ...?"
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<DIV></DIV>> > If the alternatives were to have no parks, no sewage, no fire protection,
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<DIV></DIV>> > and no law enforcement;
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<DIV></DIV>> > or for us to be forced to move and live in huddled masses with less parks,
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<DIV></DIV>> > less sewage treatment, less law enforcement, and less fire protection;
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<DIV></DIV>> > or to go without one of the previous services;
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<DIV></DIV>> > or to pay only a portion and receive ineffective services from all the
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<DIV></DIV>>about
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<DIV></DIV>> > services then Yes I would.
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<DIV></DIV>>Wow, you're such an either-or person -- *either* we spend 50% of our
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<DIV></DIV>>State/Local budget on government schools, *or* we have no education.
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<DIV></DIV>>I assume you would say the same thing about military spending? :)
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<DIV></DIV>>It's not an either/or thing here, Donovan. There are other options.
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<DIV></DIV>>1. Dale's option: having the *best* education for the lowest possible cost.
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<DIV></DIV>>2. Donovan's option: having the worst education for the highest possible
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<DIV></DIV>>cost.
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<DIV></DIV>>Gee, you choose! Oops, you have!
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > Likewise, this like asking would if you would rather have half the surgery
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<DIV></DIV>> > you need and pay $3000 or pay $10000 and get the entire surgery. Kind of
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<DIV></DIV>> > pointless to get half the surgery.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>A better comparison -- you can go and get the surgery from a private
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<DIV></DIV>>physician for $3,000 or from the VA hospital (government doctors) for a
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<DIV></DIV>>total cost of $10,000 (to the taxpayers). Same surgery, but one costs over 3
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<DIV></DIV>>times as much.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>But, according to your logic, the VA procedure is "free". Sigh...
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > >"That's the relative numbers that the MSD has downsized in the last 10
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<DIV></DIV>> > years."
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<DIV></DIV>> > You make horrible misleading comparisons Dale. This like comparing Cars to
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<DIV></DIV>> > computers. Computers cost 50% less every five years and the technology
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<DIV></DIV>> > doubles. Cars double in price every 5 years. A car doesn't crash 5x a day
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<DIV></DIV>> > either.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>And we're back again to the heart of the discussion -- government
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<DIV></DIV>>educational costs are spiraling out of control compared to the rest of the
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<DIV></DIV>>economy.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>For you, that's perfectly acceptable. Hey! Why not spend even *more*! We're
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<DIV></DIV>>getting a bargain at having it only increase by a factor of 3.4x over the
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<DIV></DIV>>student bail-out rate.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>For some of us, it's time to critically ask *why* those costs are spiraling
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<DIV></DIV>>out of control and not to accept that spiraling as the status quo.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > You haven't provided that information because you know it can't be done.
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<DIV></DIV>>But it *has* been done and *is* being done all over the country (and the
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<DIV></DIV>>world) on a daily basis. Listen carefully: parental choice and competition
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<DIV></DIV>>among the private sector. If you put some competition into the mix, you will
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<DIV></DIV>>find that government school spending will decrease and performance would
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<DIV></DIV>>increase. If it didn't then parents will vote with their feet -- as many
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<DIV></DIV>>inner city parents have done.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>Many voters (and hence States) across this country have realized that the
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<DIV></DIV>>government *cannot* and *should not* educate our children -- we call this
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<DIV></DIV>>the "Separation of School and State". Many States are aggressively pursuing
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<DIV></DIV>>alternatives to the failing status quo that you support. That's what I'm
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<DIV></DIV>>proposing as well.
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<DIV></DIV>>Best,
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<DIV></DIV>>Dale Courtney
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<DIV></DIV>>Moscow, Idaho
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