[Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
Dale Courtney
dale@courtneys.us
Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:30:32 -0700
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Donovan,
You admit that we have a problem with the spending, etc, at MSD and I'll =
lay out the plan.=20
Otherwise, I'll be wasting my breath -- like a doctor telling a patient =
he has terminal cancer, and the patient is in denial and refusing =
therapy.
Best,
Dale
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Donovan Arnold=20
To: dale@courtneys.us ; vision2020@moscow.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 19:43
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
Dale,=20
You write: "Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending will =
spiral out of control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then I =
doubt anything I could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your =
mind will justify what your heart has already chosen."
You avoid the Question: "Offer a detailed plan of how you would =
intend to cut the budget and still include the same services for =
children and educators?"
How many times do I have to ask? You think it is already being done, =
by private schools, then great, go get a copy of the budget of what they =
do for disabled children, starving children, and children with emotional =
disabilities. Then compare it to that of a public school. Then you can =
say, see I told you so.
I have been in private schools and attended them. They don't have =
wheelchair access. They don't have teachers to deal with emotionally =
disturbed children. They don't have Teachers to deal with students that =
are blind, or deaf, or have a learning disability. They don't have =
trained professionals to deal with rape victims. They don't have =
councilors to help students find jobs when they graduate. They don't =
have sports. They don't have playgrounds many times. They don't have =
field trips to learn hands on. They don't freely feed the poor students. =
Many times they don't even have a cafeteria, just tables for kids to eat =
their lunches they bring from home. They don't have buses. They don't =
have trouble maker students, they get rid of them. They don't have =
teachers that speak their mind, they would be fired. They don't have =
adequate buildings, they are all beat up and old. Many don't have =
air-conditioning. They rarely have minority students, which add to the =
cultural l! earning. They don't have students that are of below average =
intelligence, they are not allowed in.=20
Here is the question again: Show a detailed plan how you can cut the =
school budget and provide students and educators with the same =
opportunities and services?
Your answer should look something like this:
The "name of private school" offers the exact same services for =
disabled students, the poor, and the below average student. All students =
are allowed to play in the same games and sports of children in the =
public school, including baseball, soccer, volleyball, hockey, swimming, =
and football. Counseling and medical services are also provided for the =
students at this school the same as a public school with professionals =
having the same level of education and qualifications. The same subjects =
are taught and to the same or level as the public schools. =
Transportation is also provided for each child. The school will except =
what ever student shows up at the door and will treat them the same. We =
will not push our religious views on the child if you are against it.
Our budget per child is: (a number less then MSD)
MSD Budget per child is:=20
This is simple to do Dale! Very basic. If you cannot find "ONE" =
private school in the United States that provides this and doesn't =
receive federal and local aid, then you know you have lost this =
argument. If you can provide concrete proof of a school that can and =
does do this, then you will convince me and I will admit defeat on this =
issue. But I am willing to bet that you can't find one "Private" school =
that accepts all students, regardless of who they are, or what problems =
and disabilities they bring, still provide the same services for them, =
and still have a budget less then that of MSD.=20
I know you will say that you already have. And blah blah blah, but not =
provide one number or the name of one school in the United states that =
meets these basic standards are children provide.
Thanks!
Donovan J Arnold
>From: "Dale Courtney"=20
>To:=20
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply=20
>Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:20:57 -0700=20
>=20
>Donovan writes:=20
> > Once again, you offer statistics and whine to go with it. You =
offer no=20
> > detailed plan to deal with how the public educational system can =
cut the=20
> > budget and NOT cut services for the children and educators.=20
>=20
>Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending will spiral out =
of=20
>control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then I doubt =
anything I=20
>could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your mind will =
justify what=20
>your heart has already chosen.=20
>=20
> > >"If Moscow's population were to decrease from 28,000 people to =
23,000=20
>people=20
> > >over the course of 10 years, would you be in favor of increasing=20
> > >inflation-adjusted spending by 100% to the fire department, law=20
>enforcement,=20
> > >road maintenance, parks, sewage maintenance, ...?"=20
> > If the alternatives were to have no parks, no sewage, no fire =
protection,=20
> > and no law enforcement;=20
> > or for us to be forced to move and live in huddled masses with =
less parks,=20
> > less sewage treatment, less law enforcement, and less fire =
protection;=20
> > or to go without one of the previous services;=20
> > or to pay only a portion and receive ineffective services from all =
the=20
>about=20
> > services then Yes I would.=20
>=20
>Wow, you're such an either-or person -- *either* we spend 50% of our=20
>State/Local budget on government schools, *or* we have no education.=20
>=20
>I assume you would say the same thing about military spending? :)=20
>=20
>It's not an either/or thing here, Donovan. There are other options.=20
>=20
>1. Dale's option: having the *best* education for the lowest possible =
cost.=20
>2. Donovan's option: having the worst education for the highest =
possible=20
>cost.=20
>=20
>Gee, you choose! Oops, you have!=20
>=20
> > Likewise, this like asking would if you would rather have half the =
surgery=20
> > you need and pay $3000 or pay $10000 and get the entire surgery. =
Kind of=20
> > pointless to get half the surgery.=20
>=20
>A better comparison -- you can go and get the surgery from a private=20
>physician for $3,000 or from the VA hospital (government doctors) for =
a=20
>total cost of $10,000 (to the taxpayers). Same surgery, but one costs =
over 3=20
>times as much.=20
>=20
>But, according to your logic, the VA procedure is "free". Sigh...=20
>=20
> > >"That's the relative numbers that the MSD has downsized in the =
last 10=20
> > years."=20
> > You make horrible misleading comparisons Dale. This like comparing =
Cars to=20
> > computers. Computers cost 50% less every five years and the =
technology=20
> > doubles. Cars double in price every 5 years. A car doesn't crash =
5x a day=20
> > either.=20
>=20
>And we're back again to the heart of the discussion -- government=20
>educational costs are spiraling out of control compared to the rest =
of the=20
>economy.=20
>=20
>For you, that's perfectly acceptable. Hey! Why not spend even *more*! =
We're=20
>getting a bargain at having it only increase by a factor of 3.4x over =
the=20
>student bail-out rate.=20
>=20
>For some of us, it's time to critically ask *why* those costs are =
spiraling=20
>out of control and not to accept that spiraling as the status quo.=20
>=20
> > You haven't provided that information because you know it can't be =
done.=20
>=20
>But it *has* been done and *is* being done all over the country (and =
the=20
>world) on a daily basis. Listen carefully: parental choice and =
competition=20
>among the private sector. If you put some competition into the mix, =
you will=20
>find that government school spending will decrease and performance =
would=20
>increase. If it didn't then parents will vote with their feet -- as =
many=20
>inner city parents have done.=20
>=20
>Many voters (and hence States) across this country have realized that =
the=20
>government *cannot* and *should not* educate our children -- we call =
this=20
>the "Separation of School and State". Many States are aggressively =
pursuing=20
>alternatives to the failing status quo that you support. That's what =
I'm=20
>proposing as well.=20
>=20
>Best,=20
>Dale Courtney=20
>Moscow, Idaho=20
>=20
>_____________________________________________________=20
> List services made available by First Step Internet,=20
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.=20
> http://www.fsr.net=20
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
=
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<DIV>Donovan,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You admit that we have a problem with the spending, etc, at MSD and =
I'll=20
lay out the plan. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Otherwise, I'll be wasting my breath -- like a doctor telling a =
patient he=20
has terminal cancer, and the patient is in denial and refusing =
therapy.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best,</DIV>
<DIV>Dale</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Ddonovanarnold@hotmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Ddale@courtneys.us=20
href=3D"mailto:dale@courtneys.us">dale@courtneys.us</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, June 29, 2003 =
19:43</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] MSD =
Pay and=20
Tenure--a reply</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Dale, </P>
<P>You write: "Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending =
will=20
spiral out of control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then =
I doubt=20
anything I could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your mind =
will=20
justify what your heart has already chosen."</P></DIV>
<P>You avoid the Question: <STRONG><U><EM>"Offer a detailed plan =
of how=20
you would intend to cut the budget and still include the same services =
for=20
children and educators?"</EM></U></STRONG></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>How many times do I have to ask? You think it is already being =
done, by=20
private schools, then great, go get a copy of the budget of what they =
do for=20
disabled children, starving children, and children with emotional=20
disabilities. Then compare it to that of a public school. Then you can =
say,=20
see I told you so.</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>I have been in private schools and attended them. They don't have=20
wheelchair access. They don't have teachers to deal with emotionally =
disturbed=20
children. They don't have Teachers to deal with students that are =
blind, or=20
deaf, or have a learning disability. They don't have trained =
professionals to=20
deal with rape victims. They don't have councilors to help students =
find jobs=20
when they graduate. They don't have sports. They don't have =
playgrounds many=20
times. They don't have field trips to learn hands on. They don't =
freely feed=20
the poor students. Many times they don't even have a cafeteria, just =
tables=20
for kids to eat their lunches they bring from home. They don't have =
buses.=20
They don't have trouble maker students, they get rid of them. They =
don't have=20
teachers that speak their mind, they would be fired. They don't have =
adequate=20
buildings, they are all beat up and old. Many don't have=20
air-conditioning. They rarely have minority students, which add =
to the=20
cultural l! earning. They don't have students that are of below =
average=20
intelligence, they are not allowed in. </P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P><STRONG><U><EM>Here is the question again: Show a detailed plan how =
you can=20
cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same =
opportunities and services?</EM></U></STRONG></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>Your answer should look something like this:</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>The "name of private school" offers the exact same services for =
disabled=20
students, the poor, and the below average student. All students are =
allowed to=20
play in the same games and sports of children in the public =
school,=20
including baseball, soccer, volleyball, hockey, swimming, and =
football.=20
Counseling and medical services are also provided for the students at =
this=20
school the same as a public school with professionals having the same =
level of=20
education and qualifications. The same subjects are taught and to the =
same or=20
level as the public schools. Transportation is also provided for each =
child.=20
The school will except what ever student shows up at the door and will =
treat=20
them the same. We will not push our religious views on the child if =
you are=20
against it.</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>Our budget per child is: (a number less then MSD)</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>MSD Budget per child is: </P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P><STRONG><EM><U>This is simple to do Dale! Very basic. If you cannot =
find "ONE" private school in the United States that provides this =
and=20
doesn't receive federal and local aid, then you know you have lost =
this=20
argument. </U></EM></STRONG>If you can provide concrete proof of a =
school that=20
can and does do this, then you will convince me and I will admit =
defeat on=20
this issue. But I am willing to bet that you can't find one "Private" =
school=20
that accepts all students, regardless of who they are, or what =
problems and=20
disabilities they bring, still provide the same services for them, and =
still=20
have a budget less then that of MSD. </P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>I know you will say that you already have. And blah blah blah, but =
not=20
provide one number or the name of one school in the United states that =
meets=20
these basic standards are children provide.</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>Thanks!</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>Donovan J Arnold</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: "Dale Courtney" <DALE@COURTNEYS.US>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>To: <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:20:57 -0700=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Donovan writes:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > Once again, you offer statistics and whine to go =
with it.=20
You offer no=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > detailed plan to deal with how the public =
educational=20
system can cut the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > budget and NOT cut services for the children and=20
educators.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending =
will=20
spiral out of=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then =
I doubt=20
anything I=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your =
mind will=20
justify what=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>your heart has already chosen.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > >"If Moscow's population were to decrease from =
28,000=20
people to 23,000=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>people=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > >over the course of 10 years, would you be in =
favor of=20
increasing=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > >inflation-adjusted spending by 100% to the =
fire=20
department, law=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>enforcement,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > >road maintenance, parks, sewage maintenance, =
...?"=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > If the alternatives were to have no parks, no =
sewage, no=20
fire protection,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > and no law enforcement;=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > or for us to be forced to move and live in =
huddled masses=20
with less parks,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > less sewage treatment, less law enforcement, and =
less=20
fire protection;=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > or to go without one of the previous services;=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > or to pay only a portion and receive ineffective =
services=20
from all the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>about=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > services then Yes I would.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Wow, you're such an either-or person -- *either* we =
spend 50%=20
of our=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>State/Local budget on government schools, *or* we have =
no=20
education.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>I assume you would say the same thing about military =
spending?=20
:)=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>It's not an either/or thing here, Donovan. There are =
other=20
options.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>1. Dale's option: having the *best* education for the =
lowest=20
possible cost.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>2. Donovan's option: having the worst education for the =
highest=20
possible=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>cost.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Gee, you choose! Oops, you have!=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > Likewise, this like asking would if you would =
rather have=20
half the surgery=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > you need and pay $3000 or pay $10000 and get the =
entire=20
surgery. Kind of=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > pointless to get half the surgery.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>A better comparison -- you can go and get the surgery =
from a=20
private=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>physician for $3,000 or from the VA hospital =
(government=20
doctors) for a=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>total cost of $10,000 (to the taxpayers). Same surgery, =
but one=20
costs over 3=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>times as much.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>But, according to your logic, the VA procedure is =
"free".=20
Sigh...=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > >"That's the relative numbers that the MSD has =
downsized in the last 10=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > years."=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > You make horrible misleading comparisons Dale. =
This like=20
comparing Cars to=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > computers. Computers cost 50% less every five =
years and=20
the technology=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > doubles. Cars double in price every 5 years. A =
car=20
doesn't crash 5x a day=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > either.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>And we're back again to the heart of the discussion --=20
government=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>educational costs are spiraling out of control compared =
to the=20
rest of the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>economy.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>For you, that's perfectly acceptable. Hey! Why not =
spend even=20
*more*! We're=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>getting a bargain at having it only increase by a =
factor of=20
3.4x over the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>student bail-out rate.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>For some of us, it's time to critically ask *why* those =
costs=20
are spiraling=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>out of control and not to accept that spiraling as the =
status=20
quo.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > You haven't provided that information because you =
know it=20
can't be done.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>But it *has* been done and *is* being done all over the =
country=20
(and the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>world) on a daily basis. Listen carefully: parental =
choice and=20
competition=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>among the private sector. If you put some competition =
into the=20
mix, you will=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>find that government school spending will decrease and=20
performance would=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>increase. If it didn't then parents will vote with =
their feet=20
-- as many=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>inner city parents have done.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Many voters (and hence States) across this country have =
realized that the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>government *cannot* and *should not* educate our =
children -- we=20
call this=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>the "Separation of School and State". Many States are=20
aggressively pursuing=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>alternatives to the failing status quo that you =
support. That's=20
what I'm=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>proposing as well.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Best,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Dale Courtney=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Moscow, Idaho=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>_____________________________________________________=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> List services made available by First Step Internet,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> http://www.fsr.net=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
<DIV></DIV>
=
<DIV></DIV>>=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
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