[Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
joekc at roadrunner.com
joekc at roadrunner.com
Tue Sep 23 07:25:01 PDT 2008
Roger,
How can the destruction of property be worse, less democratic, than directly subverting an election?
--
Joe Campbell
---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> Elections have been stolen from the beginning of this county. Linden Johnson stole the election in his first run for congress (missing ballot boxes) and the chicago machine (dead people voting). None of this is right and the people responsible should have been prosecuted. The destruction of property (with it's implicit danger of killing people) to provoke a change is also a subversion of the democratic system and is much worse. Both should be roundly condemned.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:16:48 -0700
> To: joekc at roadrunner.com, "g. crabtree" jampot at roadrunner.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>
> > Gary,
> >
> > You are factually incorrect here.
> >
> > "2. Ayers is worse than Liddy in that he recklessly endangered lives and
> > property while Liddy orchestrated a failed break in. McGovern was never a
> > viable candidate and what occurred at the Watergate hotel did not alter the
> > outcome of the election in '72. Both men were attempting to "circumvent
> > the democratic process" but only one was willing to risk the lives of those
> > who had nothing to do with his goals."
> >
> > Nixon was not after McGovern, he was after Muskie. Muskie was the leading candidate for the Democratic Nomination in 1972. McGovern was a dark horse who did well in caucuses. Muskie was a serious threat to Nixon. Nixon had established at Dirty Tricks Campaign against Muskie.
> >
> > Subverting justice and attempting to rig a national election is a very serious crime.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Donovan
> >
> > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> > To: joekc at roadrunner.com
> > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 7:20 AM
> >
> > I disagree with your summary somewhat. I would modify it as follows:
> >
> > 1. What Ayers did was bad and what Liddy did was bad.
> >
> > 2. Ayers is worse than Liddy in that he recklessly endangered lives and
> > property while Liddy orchestrated a failed break in. McGovern was never a
> > viable candidate and what occurred at the Watergate hotel did not alter the
> > outcome of the election in '72. Both men were attempting to
> > "circumvent
> > the democratic process" but only one was willing to risk the lives of
> > those
> > who had nothing to do with his goals.
> >
> > 3. Neither is a major issue in the upcoming election but, you are judged by
> > the company you keep. Ayers is an unrepentant communist terrorist.
> >
> > 4. If Liddy is an issue (and, as you pointed out, he's not) Ayers still is.
> >
> > He, along with Barry's other friends and mentors Frank Marshall Davis, Saul
> >
> > Alinsky, Jeremiah Wright, etc. give us a major insight into what we can
> > expect from the anointed one and many, myself included, do not like what is
> > revealed.
> >
> > g
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 7:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >
> >
> > Gary (if I may),
> >
> > I'm sorry for suggesting that you don't know anything about American
> > history. It was a sarcastic
> > comment, a failed attempt at humor: "If you think that Nixon resigned
> > because of a botched
> > burglary, then ..."
> >
> > Nonetheless, Liddy was not a "foot soldier." He was a chief
> > operative. Maybe
> > not a general (Nixon)
> > or a lieutenant (Dean) but not a private, more like a sergeant, like William
> > Cally. Certainly others
> > were perhaps more responsible, but weren't Cally and Liddy also responsible
> >
> > for their actions?
> >
> > Lastly, I'm not trying to suggest that McCain should "disassociate
> > himself
> > from the man." I believe
> > in redemption. I can wrap my head around the idea that Liddy is reformed.
> > I'm not asking McCain
> > to distance himself from Liddy (though were I running, I'd want to make it
> > clear that cheating is
> > not the American way).
> >
> > You've forgotten about the initial thread. The point is that
> > Republican's
> > have been suggesting
> > that the Obama-Ayers connection is an issue. If you google "Obama Ayers
> > controversy" you get:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama–Ayers_controversy
> >
> > But if you google "McCain Liddy controversy" there is no similar
> > wikipedia
> > listing. Or any listing
> > that deals with this "controversy" since it is not a controversy.
> > That was
> > the initial point of the
> > post, namely. that if the former is a controversy, then so should be the
> > latter.
> >
> > I'm happy to say that McCain-and-Liddy is fine (though I find it odd that
> > someone who is running
> > for the presidency of the US doesn't distance himself from someone who has
> > tried to circumvent
> > the democratic process). But then what is all this hay about
> > Obama-and-Ayers?
> >
> > To summarize:
> > 1. Ayers is bad and Liddy is bad. (I'm not suggesting that Ayers is good.)
> > 2. Liddy is worse than Ayers (one blew up buildings; the other was part of a
> > team that
> > succeeded in winning a presidential election, in part, by cheating).
> > 3. Neither is an issue in the recent election, for guilt by association is a
> > fallacy.
> > 4. If Ayers is an issue (and Republicans have made it an issue), then Liddy
> > is a bigger issue.
> >
> > All the best, Joe
> >
> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > > I know a bit about American history and Watergate in particular. Are you
> > > trying to tell me that Watergate was all about G. Gordon Liddy? Liddy was
> >
> > > a
> > > minor player in the Watergate scandal, a foot soldier who ended up bearing
> > > the brunt of the punishment for people above him. John Dean, A Watergate
> > > principal who has been held up on this forum as a man whose opinion is
> > > worthy of respectful consideration, had far more to do with Watergate and
> > > it's subsequent cover up then Liddy ever did. Liddy readily admitted
> > that
> > > he did the crime, he did the time, he paid his debt to society and has
> > > gone
> > > on to lead a decent life. That McCain should have to move heaven and earth
> > > to disassociate himself from the man seems unreasonable.
> > >
> > > g
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> > > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:38 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> > >
> > >
> > > > You are twisting the argument. No one is sticking up for Ayers. The
> > > > point
> > > > is that if Ayers matters
> > > > to Obama's reputation, Liddy should matter to McCain's.
> > Another point is
> > > > that, relatively speaking,
> > > > Ayers is not worse than Liddy and Liddy is not better than Ayers. I
> > > > think
> > > > Liddy is far worse.
> > > >
> > > > Watergate revealed a much deeper threat to American democracy. The
> > > > simple
> > > > fact is that Nixon
> > > > cheated in a broad number of ways. Cheated in winning the
> > presidential
> > > > election. Look up "Watergate," do a bit of research, and
> > learn something
> > > > about American history. Are you trying to
> > > > tell me that that Nixon resigned the presidency merely because of an
> > > > unsuccessful burglary?
> > > >
> > > > What does democracy stand for if not for fair elections for the
> > > > presidency
> > > > of the US, where the
> > > > people may be certain that the choice is the product of their will
> > and
> > > > not
> > > > the will of a select few?
> > > > Do you think that Barry Bonds deserves the home run king crown if it
> > > > turns
> > > > out that he took
> > > > steroids? No. He cheated. At the very least, Nixon cheated in his
> > second
> > > > presidential bid, cheated
> > > > in an election for the president of the US. He won unfairly and Liddy
> > > > helped.
> > > >
> > > > And Ayers did not get off scot free. The charges were dropped. Why?
> > > > Prosecutorial misconduct.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Joe Campbell
> > > >
> > > > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > > >> I guess since the argument being put forward is that Ayers should
> > be
> > > >> given a
> > > >> bye because he didn't really cause any harm, the same slack
> > needs to be
> > > >> granted to Mr. Liddy. After all, the Watergate break in was
> > > >> unsuccessful
> > > >> and
> > > >> the burglars (a fairly incompetent bunch) were all arrested. So,
> > since
> > > >> no
> > > >> presidential campaign was hijacked and no vote was taken out of
> > the
> > > >> hands
> > > >> of
> > > >> the people it seems to me that you are holding G.Gordon to a much
> >
> > > >> higher
> > > >> standard. At the very least Ayers committed an act of gross
> > vandalism
> > > >> and
> > > >> reckless endangerment and got off Scot free. Liddy was complicit
> > in a
> > > >> failed
> > > >> break in and did five and a half years. He did the crime and he
> > did the
> > > >> time. Throwing in some silly disclaimer whenever his name comes
> > up
> > > >> seems
> > > >> as
> > > >> daft and unnecessary as saying "setting off bombs designed
> > to maximize
> > > >> injury and death in public places is a very, very bad thing.
> > > >>
> > > >> g
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> > > >> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:20 AM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > What would be worse: a terrorist from another land blowing
> > up some
> > > >> > buildings or a terrorist from
> > > >> > another land hijacking a presidential campaign and ensuring
> > that one
> > > >> > candidate wins over
> > > >> > another? I think that hijacking a presidential campaign is
> > about the
> > > >> > worst
> > > >> > thing that anyone can
> > > >> > do in a democracy. I'm a bit shocked that not everyone
> > sees it this
> > > >> > way.
> > > >> > Like Donovan I'm no fan
> > > >> > of Ayers but to post anything on this topic without
> > condemning Liddy
> > > >> > seems
> > > >> > to be an insult to our
> > > >> > form of government. Why not at least throw in a "Oh, by
> > the way
> > > >> > taking
> > > >> > the
> > > >> > vote for president out
> > > >> > of the people and putting it into the hands of a few is a
> > very, very
> > > >> > bad
> > > >> > thing."
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --
> > > >> > Joe Campbell
> > > >> >
> > > >> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >> >> Read what I wrote. I did not claim that he killed
> > anyone. I said
> > > >> >> that
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> >> act of setting off explosives wrapped in nails in public
> > places is
> > > >> >> akin
> > > >> >> to attempted murder. If I light your apartment building
> > on fire and,
> > > >> >> by
> > > >> >> the grace of God, no one is injured or killed am I
> > mearly guilty of
> > > >> >> failure to obtain a permit for an open burn?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> g
> > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> > > >> >> To: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 ; g. crabtree
> > > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:46 PM
> > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack
> > Obama
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Gary,
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> I don't condone the actions of Ayers. But he
> > never killed
> > > >> >> anyone.
> > > >> >> To say he did is an incorrect statement. If you can
> > demonstrate to
> > > >> >> me
> > > >> >> (an
> > > >> >> online article etc.) he killed someone, I will accept
> > your statement
> > > >> >> as
> > > >> >> fact. Otherwise, I say your judgment and understanding
> > on this
> > > >> >> matter
> > > >> >> is
> > > >> >> deeply in question.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Best Regards,
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Donovan
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> --- On Wed, 9/17/08, g. crabtree
> > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > >> >> wrote:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> From: g. crabtree
> > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers &
> > Barack Obama
> > > >> >> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com,
> > "Andreas Schou"
> > > >> >> <ophite at gmail.com>, "vision2020"
> > <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >> >> Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008, 5:30 AM
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> "Are you insinuating that Bill Ayers
> > tried to kill
> > > >> >> people?"
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> No, I am not insinuating I am saying it flat
> > out. Placing
> > > >> >> anti
> > > >> >> personnel bombs in public places is attempted murder.
> > When the
> > > >> >> vermin
> > > >> >> in
> > > >> >> Baghdad or Sader City or Fallujah set of IED's they
> > don't know the
> > > >> >> names
> > > >> >> of those they are attempting to murder and maim. Is it
> > your
> > > >> >> contention
> > > >> >> that they are not trying to kill people?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> g
> > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> > > >> >> To: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 ; g. crabtree
> > > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:42 AM
> > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers &
> > Barack Obama
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> "No small accomplishment. Oh
> > yeah, he has never
> > > >> >> attempted to slaughter soldiers and police via the
> > cowardly practice
> > > >> >> of
> > > >> >> hiding and detonating explosives wrapped in nails."
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Are you insinuating that Bill Ayers
> > tried to kill
> > > >> >> people? I am no fan of Ayers. But I think you are off
> > base saying he
> > > >> >> killed, or even attempted to kill people. If you think
> > this, please
> > > >> >> provide us with the names of people Ayers attempted to
> > kill, or who
> > > >> >> he
> > > >> >> killed.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> The people that McCain worked for
> > between 1979 and
> > > >> >> 1992
> > > >> >> harmed more people than Ayers.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Best Regards,
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Donovan
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, g. crabtree
> > > >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> From: g. crabtree
> > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers
> > & Barack
> > > >> >> Obama
> > > >> >> To: "Andreas Schou"
> > <ophite at gmail.com>,
> > > >> >> "vision2020"
> > > >> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >> >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008,
> > 7:24 PM
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> So what's your problem with the G-Man? The guy did
> > his time in
> > > >> >> anything
> > > >> >> but
> > > >> >> country club conditions until your hero, James Earl
> > Carter, commuted
> > > >> >> his
> > > >> >> sentence. He never ratted out his associates and
> > he's managed to
> > > >> >> support
> > > >> >> himself and his family as an ex-con. No small
> > accomplishment. Oh
> > > >> >> yeah,
> > > >> >> he
> > > >> >> has never attempted to slaughter soldiers and police via
> > the
> > > >> >> cowardly
> > > >> >> practice of hiding and detonating explosives wrapped in
> > nails. All
> > > >> >> things
> > > >> >> considered, I know that I would much rather associate
> > with a man who
> > > >> >> served
> > > >> >> his time and was released from prison than an
> > unrepentant attempted
> > > >> >> murderer
> > > >> >> whose only regret is that he couldn't cause more
> > carnage and mayhem.
> > > >> >> Of
> > > >> >> course that's just me.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> g
> > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> >> From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
> > > >> >> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 6:32 PM
> > > >> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> > They both knew each other. They were both appointed
> > to co-chair an
> > > >> >> > education panel by Mayor Daley, and the prior state
> > Senator from
> > > >> >> > Obama's seat introduced him at Bill Ayers'
> > house. No large,
> > > >> >> ongoing
> > > >> >> > connection. But here's the thing:
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Why isn't John McCain's friendship with G.
> > Gordon Liddy a campaign
> > > >> >> > issue? Is there any defensible reason for treating
> > Liddy like a
> > > >> >> > rehabilitated member of the community, rather than
> > as a threat to
> > > >> >> > the
> > > >> >> > Republic? If so, why?
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > -- ACS
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > =======================================================
> > > >> >> > List services made available by First Step
> > Internet,
> > > >> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > >> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> > > >> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> >> >
> > =======================================================
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> =======================================================
> > > >> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> > > >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> >> =======================================================
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> =======================================================
> > > >> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> > > >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> >> =======================================================
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > =======================================================
> > > >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > >> > http://www.fsr.net
> > > >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> > =======================================================
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
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