[Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest

[g. crabtree]

To a certain extent I agree, but then again I didn't choose the 
battleground. I fight where the opponent is. Mr. Schou for some reason 
wanted to attempt to make a point involving that resource and I was only too 
happy to refute him on the ground of his choice.

g
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Warren Hayman" <whayman at adelphia.net>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>; "Andreas Schou" 
<ophite at gmail.com>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest


>I must say that using Amazon customer reviews as warrants for claims in 
>this argument launches Wikipedia deep into the realm of scholarly 
>credibility. You sound like two combs fighting over a bald man's head.
>
> Warren Hayman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> To: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 8:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest
>
>
>> Oh my, another attempt at dishonest misdirection. You know full well that 
>> it
>> would be very easy for me to cut and paste far more positive reviews then
>> you could negative and only suggest it because you are well aware no one
>> would read them past, maybe, the first.
>>
>> I note with no small amount of surprise that the negative reviews that 
>> you
>> mention are generated by one time reviewers while the positive tend to 
>> have
>> multiple reviews under their belts. Intolerista snipers at work? Perhaps 
>> you
>> and yer buddies got a little time on your hands?
>>
>> better luck next time,
>> g
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
>> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> Cc: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>; "lfalen" 
>> <lfalen at turbonet.com>;
>> "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 7:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest
>>
>>
>>>> A quick hop over to Amazon reveals that the book "The Fruit of Her 
>>>> Hands"
>>>> by
>>>> Nancy Wilson has garnered FAR more positive reviews than negative. The
>>>> same
>>>> applies to "Her Hand in Marriage" as well as "Reforming Marriage."
>>>
>>> Gary --
>>>
>>> And why don't you post some of those positive and negative reviews?
>>> Could it be because they say things like this?
>>>
>>> "For a book with such an empowering title for women, it sure doesn't
>>> give them much credit. This book stresses the message that a woman's
>>> only calling is to produce children and support her husband
>>> relentlessly. Wilson seems very frightened of what might happen if she
>>> so much as disrespects her husband once or isn't there for him enough.
>>> For example, she advises treating your body like your husband's garden
>>> so he may enjoy it whenever he pleases and always having your breasts
>>> available to him because he might be tempted by another woman's
>>> breasts (this gave me a humorous image of a woman thrusting her chest
>>> in her husband's face when he glances at another woman). There seems
>>> to be a note of fear in these words, as though Wilson truly feels a
>>> husband will stray if he's not constantly reminded that he can have
>>> sex with his wife.
>>>
>>> If Wilson's so concerned about disrespecting men, maybe she should
>>> consider how disrespectful that presumption of male lust sounds. This
>>> book has such a negative view of women that it harps on and on about
>>> how we need men to take care of us because we apparently can't take
>>> care of ourselves. Both sexes are portrayed badly here; if I couldn't
>>> take care of myself, I certainly wouldn't want to be in the care of a
>>> man who needed a constant view of my breasts to keep from straying!
>>> The book is full of offensive remarks about marriage, particularly the
>>> claim that it's not a partnership. What does two becoming one mean, if
>>> not a partnership and a joining together?
>>>
>>> The book also preaches that the husband is head of the wife, though
>>> the usage of the word here is different than the Biblical one.
>>> Constant comments such as, "you must always refer to your head; your
>>> head has the final say" imply that Wilson believes women, upon
>>> marriage, should give up use of their brains and place their husband's
>>> heads literally on their own shoulders. This goes far beyond loving
>>> and respecting a husband in a Godly way. I cannot see how people can
>>> embrace this book, but I'm going to caution women to stay away from
>>> it; try Liz Curtis Higgs instead.
>>>
>>> One final note of interest: inspite of Wilson's many different
>>> suggestions of how to sexually please your husband (because he might
>>> get bored if you stick to one way), her own husband, in his book for
>>> men, says quite plainly that he believes sex is a duty and doesn't
>>> need spark in order to be pleasing. I wonder if his wife knows
>>> this?... "
>>>
>>> Or, if you prefer a "positive" review, how about this one?
>>>
>>> "Its about time someone stood up and told Christian women what being
>>> married to a Christian man ought to look like. It is a life of
>>> service, hard work, piety, and submission. There are a lot of books
>>> written by Christian women out there about marriage that are just weak
>>> coffee. Nancy Wilson is not afraid of offending anyone. She tells the
>>> hard truth. My husband thought I would just feel guilty after reading
>>> this book because Nancy pulls no punches. However, I was totally
>>> inspired to work harder in my home and to love my husband even more. I
>>> read this book a few months ago,so I can't go into content. I just
>>> want to highly recommend this book to any and all Christian women out
>>> there who want strong content and biblical reasoning in their lives."
>>>
>>> For "Her Hand in Marriage," I'll give you a selection of reviews:
>>>
>>> "Once again, Wilson simply doesn't get it. His book "Federal Husband"
>>> was proof enough of his extreme failure to grasp women, but this book
>>> proves all the more that he's stuck in a time when women and young
>>> girls were property under the authority of their fathers.
>>>
>>> At first glance, this book may seem like a compassionate and loving
>>> guide to raising children, but it is truly, horribly out of date.
>>> Parents have the right to control who their children date only as long
>>> as they are children; once they are adults, they should make decisions
>>> on their own. I agree that parents are responsible for raising their
>>> kids in Christian ways, but Wilson's ideas of incredibly controlling
>>> ways to raise daughters actually repulsed me. He harps over and over
>>> that a father is in charge of his daughter's virginity, to the point
>>> where he gave me a mental image of a father guarding his daughter's
>>> bedroom door 24/7. Why not just advise fathers to put their daughters
>>> in chastity belts and call it a day? If fathers were truly this
>>> controlling and actually called themselves the "guards of their
>>> daughter's virginity", they'd be ordered to get psychiatric treatment
>>> by a court of law.
>>>
>>> Another pet peeve for me was that, in the book, a woman's virginity is
>>> mentioned far more than a man's, so we're to assume it's worse if a
>>> girl's not a virgin upon marrying; I'm so sick of this! When are
>>> people going to realize that God considers a man's sexual purity just
>>> as important as a woman's? Most offensive, though, was Douglas'
>>> outrageously sexist statements that women cannot and should not make
>>> it on their own in the world. He actually says, "Sons are trained for
>>> independence, whereas daughters are trained to pass from one state of
>>> dependence to another. Sons leave home; daughters are given." I
>>> wouldn't have had a problem with this if Wilson was clearly saying
>>> that this is NOT how it should be, but he was indicating that because
>>> people in Biblical times treated women like this, they should continue
>>> to be treated the same way now. Um, wrong; women have jobs now and for
>>> good reason. One of the reasons I respect my father is that he expects
>>> me to be just as independent when I leave home as a man would be, and
>>> rightly so! All the Christian men I know respect independent women.
>>>
>>> I also didn't like Wilson's statement that "a man should not worry
>>> about disrupting a woman's life upon courting her". He went on to say
>>> that a man who is worried about upsetting a woman's life is not truly
>>> masculine. Since when is polite concern about HER life and HER plans
>>> un-masculine? If I were dating a guy and he demanded that I marry him
>>> right away and drop all my plans for college, I'd give him a flat-out
>>> no! So would all the other women I know; concern and respect for a
>>> woman and her ideas are two of the most masculine and mature qualities
>>> a man could have and Wilson is dead-wrong in discouraging them. I
>>> suggest he pull his nose out of Biblical times and look around a bit
>>> at the modern world. The majority of Christians have adapted to the
>>> changes in the world while still remaining devout; it's about time the
>>> Wilsons did the same."
>>>
>>> Or, again, if you prefer the positive view of the same thing:
>>>
>>> "The casualites of recreational dating have mounted in our generation;
>>> and this book reminds fathers: It is OUR responsibility to lovingly
>>> protect our daughters. Their purity rests with us. I urge every Dad
>>> who loves their little pumpkin the way I love mine to get this
>>> book...Learn the Biblical mandate well, when she is young. She'll love
>>> you, and thank you for it during the teenage years;and especially in
>>> marriage.Peter Hyatt, Copiague, New York."
>>>
>>> Or how about you read the goddamn books yourself, like I did, rather
>>> than taking the Cliff's Notes version from someone with an axe to
>>> grind? It's bizarrely deceptive of you to airily claim that "oh, there
>>> were more positive than negative reviews" without mentioning the fact
>>> that the content of those reviews validates pretty much exactly what I
>>> said.
>>>
>>> -- ACS
>>>
>>
>>
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