[Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest

[Warren Hayman]

I must say that using Amazon customer reviews as warrants for claims in this 
argument launches Wikipedia deep into the realm of scholarly credibility. 
You sound like two combs fighting over a bald man's head.

Warren Hayman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
To: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest


> Oh my, another attempt at dishonest misdirection. You know full well that 
> it
> would be very easy for me to cut and paste far more positive reviews then
> you could negative and only suggest it because you are well aware no one
> would read them past, maybe, the first.
>
> I note with no small amount of surprise that the negative reviews that you
> mention are generated by one time reviewers while the positive tend to 
> have
> multiple reviews under their belts. Intolerista snipers at work? Perhaps 
> you
> and yer buddies got a little time on your hands?
>
> better luck next time,
> g
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> Cc: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>; "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>;
> "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 7:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest
>
>
>>> A quick hop over to Amazon reveals that the book "The Fruit of Her 
>>> Hands"
>>> by
>>> Nancy Wilson has garnered FAR more positive reviews than negative. The
>>> same
>>> applies to "Her Hand in Marriage" as well as "Reforming Marriage."
>>
>> Gary --
>>
>> And why don't you post some of those positive and negative reviews?
>> Could it be because they say things like this?
>>
>> "For a book with such an empowering title for women, it sure doesn't
>> give them much credit. This book stresses the message that a woman's
>> only calling is to produce children and support her husband
>> relentlessly. Wilson seems very frightened of what might happen if she
>> so much as disrespects her husband once or isn't there for him enough.
>> For example, she advises treating your body like your husband's garden
>> so he may enjoy it whenever he pleases and always having your breasts
>> available to him because he might be tempted by another woman's
>> breasts (this gave me a humorous image of a woman thrusting her chest
>> in her husband's face when he glances at another woman). There seems
>> to be a note of fear in these words, as though Wilson truly feels a
>> husband will stray if he's not constantly reminded that he can have
>> sex with his wife.
>>
>> If Wilson's so concerned about disrespecting men, maybe she should
>> consider how disrespectful that presumption of male lust sounds. This
>> book has such a negative view of women that it harps on and on about
>> how we need men to take care of us because we apparently can't take
>> care of ourselves. Both sexes are portrayed badly here; if I couldn't
>> take care of myself, I certainly wouldn't want to be in the care of a
>> man who needed a constant view of my breasts to keep from straying!
>> The book is full of offensive remarks about marriage, particularly the
>> claim that it's not a partnership. What does two becoming one mean, if
>> not a partnership and a joining together?
>>
>> The book also preaches that the husband is head of the wife, though
>> the usage of the word here is different than the Biblical one.
>> Constant comments such as, "you must always refer to your head; your
>> head has the final say" imply that Wilson believes women, upon
>> marriage, should give up use of their brains and place their husband's
>> heads literally on their own shoulders. This goes far beyond loving
>> and respecting a husband in a Godly way. I cannot see how people can
>> embrace this book, but I'm going to caution women to stay away from
>> it; try Liz Curtis Higgs instead.
>>
>> One final note of interest: inspite of Wilson's many different
>> suggestions of how to sexually please your husband (because he might
>> get bored if you stick to one way), her own husband, in his book for
>> men, says quite plainly that he believes sex is a duty and doesn't
>> need spark in order to be pleasing. I wonder if his wife knows
>> this?... "
>>
>> Or, if you prefer a "positive" review, how about this one?
>>
>> "Its about time someone stood up and told Christian women what being
>> married to a Christian man ought to look like. It is a life of
>> service, hard work, piety, and submission. There are a lot of books
>> written by Christian women out there about marriage that are just weak
>> coffee. Nancy Wilson is not afraid of offending anyone. She tells the
>> hard truth. My husband thought I would just feel guilty after reading
>> this book because Nancy pulls no punches. However, I was totally
>> inspired to work harder in my home and to love my husband even more. I
>> read this book a few months ago,so I can't go into content. I just
>> want to highly recommend this book to any and all Christian women out
>> there who want strong content and biblical reasoning in their lives."
>>
>> For "Her Hand in Marriage," I'll give you a selection of reviews:
>>
>> "Once again, Wilson simply doesn't get it. His book "Federal Husband"
>> was proof enough of his extreme failure to grasp women, but this book
>> proves all the more that he's stuck in a time when women and young
>> girls were property under the authority of their fathers.
>>
>> At first glance, this book may seem like a compassionate and loving
>> guide to raising children, but it is truly, horribly out of date.
>> Parents have the right to control who their children date only as long
>> as they are children; once they are adults, they should make decisions
>> on their own. I agree that parents are responsible for raising their
>> kids in Christian ways, but Wilson's ideas of incredibly controlling
>> ways to raise daughters actually repulsed me. He harps over and over
>> that a father is in charge of his daughter's virginity, to the point
>> where he gave me a mental image of a father guarding his daughter's
>> bedroom door 24/7. Why not just advise fathers to put their daughters
>> in chastity belts and call it a day? If fathers were truly this
>> controlling and actually called themselves the "guards of their
>> daughter's virginity", they'd be ordered to get psychiatric treatment
>> by a court of law.
>>
>> Another pet peeve for me was that, in the book, a woman's virginity is
>> mentioned far more than a man's, so we're to assume it's worse if a
>> girl's not a virgin upon marrying; I'm so sick of this! When are
>> people going to realize that God considers a man's sexual purity just
>> as important as a woman's? Most offensive, though, was Douglas'
>> outrageously sexist statements that women cannot and should not make
>> it on their own in the world. He actually says, "Sons are trained for
>> independence, whereas daughters are trained to pass from one state of
>> dependence to another. Sons leave home; daughters are given." I
>> wouldn't have had a problem with this if Wilson was clearly saying
>> that this is NOT how it should be, but he was indicating that because
>> people in Biblical times treated women like this, they should continue
>> to be treated the same way now. Um, wrong; women have jobs now and for
>> good reason. One of the reasons I respect my father is that he expects
>> me to be just as independent when I leave home as a man would be, and
>> rightly so! All the Christian men I know respect independent women.
>>
>> I also didn't like Wilson's statement that "a man should not worry
>> about disrupting a woman's life upon courting her". He went on to say
>> that a man who is worried about upsetting a woman's life is not truly
>> masculine. Since when is polite concern about HER life and HER plans
>> un-masculine? If I were dating a guy and he demanded that I marry him
>> right away and drop all my plans for college, I'd give him a flat-out
>> no! So would all the other women I know; concern and respect for a
>> woman and her ideas are two of the most masculine and mature qualities
>> a man could have and Wilson is dead-wrong in discouraging them. I
>> suggest he pull his nose out of Biblical times and look around a bit
>> at the modern world. The majority of Christians have adapted to the
>> changes in the world while still remaining devout; it's about time the
>> Wilsons did the same."
>>
>> Or, again, if you prefer the positive view of the same thing:
>>
>> "The casualites of recreational dating have mounted in our generation;
>> and this book reminds fathers: It is OUR responsibility to lovingly
>> protect our daughters. Their purity rests with us. I urge every Dad
>> who loves their little pumpkin the way I love mine to get this
>> book...Learn the Biblical mandate well, when she is young. She'll love
>> you, and thank you for it during the teenage years;and especially in
>> marriage.Peter Hyatt, Copiague, New York."
>>
>> Or how about you read the goddamn books yourself, like I did, rather
>> than taking the Cliff's Notes version from someone with an axe to
>> grind? It's bizarrely deceptive of you to airily claim that "oh, there
>> were more positive than negative reviews" without mentioning the fact
>> that the content of those reviews validates pretty much exactly what I
>> said.
>>
>> -- ACS
>>
>
>
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