[Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education
Donovan Arnold
donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Wed, 25 Jun 2003 05:02:36 -0700
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<P>Luke,</P></DIV>
<P>You are hysterical! Absolutely entertaining! </P></DIV>
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<P>You write "However, a true Christian has biblical reasons, moral imperatives to not do any of these things. You don't murder 1) because of the 10 commandments, and 2) because man was created in the image of God. You don't steal because of the 10 commandments. You don't have anything to do with fraud for the same reason. You avoid violence because God says that He hates violent men."</P>
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<P>LOL. If the only reason that you see for not murdering is because it is written in a book, I would fear being around you. Ever hear of the world "Love". Ever hear of the term "jail". Every think of the concept of chaos. How about "revenge" or "insecurity". Or perhaps "negotiation" and "Bargaining", or "friends" and "Respect" hold less value then the benefits murder and theft.</P>
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<P>The Bible doesn't list things as being "wrong" just for the sake of calling some things "wrong" and some things "right". There are reasons for why these things are listed. </P>
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<P>You claim "Watch a little kid, perhaps with a younger brother. He doesn't have to be told how to hit his little brother, or how to take away his toy, or how to lie about it afterward. No child must be taught how to be selfish, how to be mean. He does those things automatically; it's part of his nature. It doesn't wait to come out until he has grown old enough to comprehend religions."</P>
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<P>So you must have been a rotten kid then Luke. Obviously you had toys and playmates before you understood the concepts of the Bible, or before you could even read the word "Commandments". So based on your logic, as a child you would have robbed, stole, cheated, lied, manipulated, and murdered your playmates since you did not have the ability to understand religion. I, like my siblings, and most my playmates, did not do these things. I found that the kids that bammed another kid in the head or throw sand in other kids eyes wasn't fun to play with and either did the rest of the kids. I also found that sharing toys with my friends produced opportunities to play with their toys, expanding my prospects of both toys to play with and people to play games with. I found that kids that stole other kids toys were untrustworthy and I didn't allow them around my toys and either did others. If they assaulted another kid or myself they usually found another kid larger!
then them, usually the kid's that they picked on older brother or sister, pounding their butt into the ground. As a matter of fact, me and my siblings had a bit of a reputation of beating the crap out of other bullies when ever they picked on others. This one kid named Adam on my block was two years older then all the other boys on the block. He was about six, the other boys were 2-5 years old. He beat all the other kids up. So one day, my sister, being about 8, went over and beat the crap out of him in response to his actions. After that he had no friends, was beat up by a girl, and couldn't even leave his house without being afraid. His family was so hated by the neighborhood that they moved shortly after that. There was no Bible or religious understanding, it was just the laws of human behavior.</P>
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<P>You ask: "So the question comes down to this: what is the basis for your rules, for your blasphemies, for your moralities?" </P>
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<P>Answer: Survival and being successful based on human behavior.</P>
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<P>I worship God because I want to, I love him. I follow rules of not stealing, lying, cheating, and murdering because I believe that they are in the best interests of myself and society. I do nice things for people because it makes me feel good to so and helps me when they do nice things for me. However, I would lie if Nazi's came to my door and asked if I had any Jews in my house and I did. I would steal a weapon from a murderer or someone if I believed the person was going to use it to murder or in the commission of a crime against humanity. I would murder Hitler, Pol Pot, or Stalin given the chance knowing what I know now. If I go to hell because it is written in a book not to murder, lie, or steal, that would asinine.</P>
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<P>Donovan J Arnold.</P>
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<P>>To: "Ted Moffett" <TED_MOFFETT@HOTMAIL.COM>, "Donovan Arnold" <DONOVANARNOLD@HOTMAIL.COM>, thansen@moscow.com </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>CC: "vision2020" <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education
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<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:16:24 -0700
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<DIV></DIV>>Mr. Moffet:
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<DIV></DIV>> > You and I can disagree on many issues, yet we can live together in peace.
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<DIV></DIV>> > In fact, I can be an atheist, and you can follow the Bible, and if we
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<DIV></DIV>>agree
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<DIV></DIV>> > that murder, theft, fraud and violence are not good for society, we can
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<DIV></DIV>>get
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<DIV></DIV>> > along just fine, unless one of us starts insisting that the other one must
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<DIV></DIV>> > follow their beliefs down to the last detail, or they are doomed to hell,
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<DIV></DIV>> > from the bible believer's point of view, or doomed to dogmatic
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<DIV></DIV>>superstitious
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<DIV></DIV>> > nonsense, from the atheist's point of view.
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<DIV></DIV>> That is not quite true. If you are a logical and consistent atheist, you
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<DIV></DIV>>have no reason to abstain from murder; there is no punishment anyway. You
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<DIV></DIV>>have no reason to abstain from theft; so long as no one catches you, a
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<DIV></DIV>>little money on the side can really be nice. You have no reason to keep from
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<DIV></DIV>>fraud; in a court case, someone might shove over a little dough to keep you
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<DIV></DIV>>quiet, so why not take it? You don't need to be non-violent; there is no
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<DIV></DIV>>consequence.
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<DIV></DIV>> However, a true Christian has biblical reasons, moral imperatives to not
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<DIV></DIV>>do any of these things. You don't murder 1) because of the 10 commandments,
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<DIV></DIV>>and 2) because man was created in the image of God. You don't steal because
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<DIV></DIV>>of the 10 commandments. You don't have anything to do with fraud for the
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<DIV></DIV>>same reason. You avoid violence because God says that He hates violent men.
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<DIV></DIV>> > derived from realizing that the ultimate truth may be beyond anyone's
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<DIV></DIV>> > understanding, is not what creates evil in our world. Much of the evil
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<DIV></DIV>> > comes from people who think they have the ultimate truth which gives them
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<DIV></DIV>> > the right to violently impose this on other people, and kill or imprison
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<DIV></DIV>> > them if they do not agree.
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<DIV></DIV>> Evil comes not from a man's surroundings, but from his heart. You want
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<DIV></DIV>>to see evidence of this? Watch a little kid, perhaps with a younger brother.
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<DIV></DIV>>He doesn't have to be told how to hit his little brother, or how to take
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<DIV></DIV>>away his toy, or how to lie about it afterward. No child must be taught how
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<DIV></DIV>>to be selfish, how to be mean. He does those things automatically; it's part
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<DIV></DIV>>of his nature. It doesn't wait to come out until he has grown old enough to
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<DIV></DIV>>comprehend religions.
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<DIV></DIV>> > that taught them to respect other religious points of view, and to be
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<DIV></DIV>>humble
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<DIV></DIV>> > about asserting that their religion had to be the only true religion,
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<DIV></DIV>>would
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<DIV></DIV>> > they have been as likely to carry out the 9/11 attacks?
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<DIV></DIV>> Yes, I think so, because the image that Muslims, tolerant or not, in the
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<DIV></DIV>>Middle East have of America is one of big, bad Christians who behind the
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<DIV></DIV>>scenes have a wicked culture (for example, porn, crime, and making movies
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<DIV></DIV>>full of immorality, full of nudity, full of all kinds of evil.) Even if they
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<DIV></DIV>>are taught to be unsure of their religion, they would still think of America
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<DIV></DIV>>as a hated enemy.
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<DIV></DIV>>In regard to your desire to accept every religion:
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<DIV></DIV>> Every culture, no matter how tolerant it claims to be, has a form of
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<DIV></DIV>>blasphemy, an object of hate. For example, if I asked the average American
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<DIV></DIV>>whether we should become Nazi's, and find a new Hitler, the answer would be
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<DIV></DIV>>NO WAY! Our culture and history declare Nazism to be a fell evil.
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<DIV></DIV>> One of the idols that American culture today has is feminism. Regardless
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<DIV></DIV>>of my arguments, if I spoke out on this forum against women in government,
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<DIV></DIV>>women in leadership positions, or women in the military, I would immediately
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<DIV></DIV>>be jumped upon by 50 people at once. It wouldn't matter if I argued well, or
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<DIV></DIV>>if you claimed to be tolerant of other people's ways of viewing the world.
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<DIV></DIV>>And the same thing goes for homosexuality. Even you, in all your
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<DIV></DIV>>relativistic, tolerant truths, have beliefs and ideals that you would indeed
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<DIV></DIV>>claim intolerant, absolute truth on.
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<DIV></DIV>> So the question comes down to this: what is the basis for your rules,
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<DIV></DIV>>for your blasphemies, for your moralities?
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<DIV></DIV>>Sincerely,
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<DIV></DIV>>Luke Nieuwsma
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