[Vision2020] Re: Second coming of Jesus

[John Harrell]

Ralph,

You really do seem to have a very limited understanding of eschatology and
preterism. 

For laughs though, I would recommend the book "Right Behind", by Nathan 
Wilson, publishing company Canon Press.

Enjoy and Cheers!
John Harrell


--- Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu> wrote:
> >
> > From: Douglas Stambler <ccm_moscow@yahoo.com>
> > Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003  3:07:37 PM US/Pacific
> > To: Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu>, vision2020@moscow.com
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Second coming of Jesus: Response to R. Nielsen
> >
> >
> > Ralph:
> >  
> > Christ is real and alive today!  There's no doubt about that.  And 
> > there is nothing that anyone can do to convince you of that, you have 
> > to try it yourself.  Ask Jesus to come into your life today, and you 
> > will notice that your life improves, and that your burdens will be 
> > lifted, too.  No one knows exactly when Christ will come again, and I 
> > don't think that you really care about that.  I think what you're 
> > after is for God to show Himself to you.
> >  
> > Again, ask Christ into your life today, and you will feel the 
> > difference.
> >  
> > In Christ,
> > Douglas Stambler
> 
> RALPH NIELSEN
> 	I'm talking about the historical Jesus who was supposedly carried up 
> into the sky and who promised to come down out of the sky again while 
> some of his contemporaries were still alive. Douglas, you are talking 
> about an imaginary companion.
> 
> >
> RALPH NIELSEN (earlier)
> > The question of the Second Coming of Jesus becomes a "doctrinal" issue
> > only to those who refuse to face the fact that both Paul, the earliest
> > writer in the New Testament, and most of the others as well, looked for
> > an imminent return of Jesus out of the clouds while nearly all of them
> > were still alive. Dale's claim that the Parousia was in two parts, with
> > a judgment in the year 70, simply doesn't agree with the book of
> > Revelation, for example, where the judgment is yet to come. Most
> > scholars agree that Revelation was written around the year 100.
> > They also agree that the epistle of 2 Peter was not written by Peter,
> > but was a late attempt at damage control when Jesus had not yet shown
> > up as predicted. And ever since then, Christians looking for a magical
> > solution to all the world's troubles have had to pretend that Jesus,
> > Paul, et. al., either did not mean what they said or did not say what
> > they meant. Dale is correct that many books have been written over the
> > centuries attempting to rationalize this fact.
> 
> > RALPH NIELSEN 
> > >The question of the Second Coming of Jesus becomes a "doctrinal" 
> > issue only
> > >to those who refuse to face the fact that both Paul, the earliest 
> > writer in
> > >the New Testament, and most of the others as well, looked for an 
> > imminent
> > >return of Jesus out of the clouds while nearly all of them were still 
> > alive.
> > >Dale's claim that the Parousia was in two parts, with a judgment in 
> > the year
> > >70, simply doesn't agree with the book of Revelation, for example, 
> > where the
> > >judgment is yet to come. Most scholars agree that Revelation was 
> > written
> > >around the year 100.
> 
> > From: "Dale Courtney" <dale@courtneys.us>
> > Nielsen, you still have a lot more homework to do.
> >  
> > First, your "late date" of 100 AD is held by "some" contemporary 
> > researchers. However, the vast majority of scholars thru history have 
> > disagreed with you and your 100 AD date. In fact, the vast majority 
> > have dated Revelation before 70 AD. If you would like, I can provide 
> > you (off-list) with a 15-page bibliography listing scholars who have 
> > disagreed with you over the past 2,000 years. Bottom line: all the 
> > internal and external evidence points to an early date (prior to 70 
> > AD). The reason for pushing the date to later isn't for scholarly 
> > purposes but to support a different agenda.
> >  
> > Second, you need to study up more on Hebrew apocalyptic literature and 
> > see what it means to come in the clouds. Understanding apocalyptic 
> > genre is not like reading a Harry Potter book.
> >  
> > Third, there is a significant difference between a coming in judgment 
> > and a physical coming. That distinction shouldn't be lost on you. 
> > Again, I refer you to the apocalyptic writings of the Hebrew Prophets 
> > where they speak of judgment comings.
> >  
> > Finally, if you are *really* interested in knowing, contact me 
> > off-list -- vision2020 is not a forum for theological debates. Since 
> > you haven't done so, I'm assuming that you don't *really* care to 
> > know, and that your agenda lies elsewhere.
> 
> RALPH NIELSEN
> 	Recent scholars generally agree that Revelation was written around the 
> year 95 (Adela Yarbro Collins, David E. Aune (both of whom I have 
> personally contacted) and others). But whenever it was written there is 
> no doubt that Jesus, Paul, and many early Christians believed that what 
> we call the first century was supposed to have been the last century. 
> But nothing happened, the prophecies failed, just as similar 
> prophecies, held by the Millerites, Latter-day Saints, and Jehovah's 
> Witnesses have also failed. I prophesy that Jesus will not come again 
> in your time or mine either. No matter how many Left Behind books or 
> Late Great Planet Earth books are written, he will not show up.
> 	Incidentally, Dale, a recent study concludes that frequent 
> masturbation by young men in their twenties helps to prevent prostate 
> problems in their later years.
> 


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