[Vision2020] Keeping church and state of mind separate in Moscow

Tue May 19 21:47:54 PDT 2015

Paul,

What color is the sky in Dreamland?

Sunil

Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 21:15:55 -0700
From: paul.rumelhart at gmail.com
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Keeping church and state of mind separate in Moscow

Is there a local or state law that they broke?  Because, like it or not, they didn't break the law with regards to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, it doesn't cover sexual orientation.

Anyway, the issue isn't whether or not the co-op should sell products to gays, the issue is your fear that those three board members are going to propose and pass such a thing.  Have they mentioned anything along those lines?  Would they have even thought about it if everyone hadn't assumed they were gay-bashers?  How many board members are there?  Is there any reason to think they could shove something like that through?  Why were they voted in in the first place if they had such evil intentions?

For the record, I'm personally against refusing service to any group of people for the sole reason of their sexual orientation.  I'm also against someone having to do something on the job that violates their personal beliefs, as long as it's a strongly-held belief.  In most cases, there could be reasonable accomodation by simply having some other employee bake their cake or whatever they object to.  Something similar to not requiring a Hindu to cook hamburgers.  In the case of the Oregon bakers, they were the sole proprietors and employees, from what I remember.

I still think it's much ado about nothing.

Paul
On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 8:49 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

OK Paul - so you have no issue with bakery owners breaking the law in refusing to sell their product to some people but not others.  Then I would guess that you also don't have a problem with the MFC breaking the law and refusing not to sell products to same sex couples either.  Yes or No?  FWIW, this is the why this issue is being discussed.

Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 20:32:01 -0700
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Keeping church and state of mind separate in Moscow
From: paul.rumelhart at gmail.com
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com
CC: moscowcares at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

I just fundamentally dislike the idea of judging someone based on one sole attribute of theirs, in this case their religious affiliation.  There's more to the job of being a board member for the Co-op than just this one issue.  Just as there is more to each of these board members than just what church they go to.  

As far as I'm aware, Doug Wilson is not a board member.  Doug can certainly talk some shit, but I don't see his nefarious plans of wanting to transform Moscow into his ideal town as being anything to worry about.  Everyone wants to transform Moscow into their ideal town.  

Also, at least as far as the bakery owners go, I don't see their refusal to bake a cake for a gay wedding as being something worthy of the term "hate".  They disagree with the idea of weddings of two members of the same sex for strong religious reasons.  They had no wish to play any part in that.  Have they actually said anything to indiacate that they hate the people for whom they refused to bake a cake?  I don't agree with them, but I can understand them.  There's a far cry between refusing to bake a cake for a ceremony they have religious issues with and not wanting to serve gays generally.  I think people are too quick to jump on the idea that anyone who has religious issues with gay weddings must hate gays in general.

As for Doug, I'm not a member of his religion but I think his rant about kicking out gay customers goes against the grain of what he preaches.  Hate the sin, love the sinner.  If anything, he should welcome gays into his restaurant, since they would be high on his list of people that need fellowship.  But, as I say, I'm not a religious scholar.

Paul

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

Hopefully getting this topic back on track...

Paul writes:
<Why don't we wait and chastise those Christ Church-affiliated board 
members *after* they propose doing whatever evil things you think they 
are going to propose?  That way, we're judging them based on their 
actions, and not their religious affiliation and our own fears and 
prejudices.>

That's fine Paul.  Why don't we start with Doug crowing about how much of a privilege it was for him on Sunday night in Cd'A to be rubbing elbows with the likes of Aaron and Melissa Klein - the owners of the Oregon bakery who refused to make /sell products to a lesbian couple that would otherwise sell to heterosexual couples.  Is that enough action for you to render a verdict on Doug and the bakery owners?  If not, then feel free to bow out of the conversation if you can't make a call one way or the other.

It's blatantly obvious that Doug supports refusing service to gay couples.  He's even written so right here on this forum that if he owned a restaurant, he wouldn't serve gay couples and would kick them off the premises.  If you want a link that post, let me know and I'll provide it.

>From there, how hard is it to connect the dots?  Doug preaches his brand of hate and instructs his gullible flock not serve 'homo couples' equally as married couples.  Apparently there are 3 of 7 Moscow Food Co-op board members with close ties to Doug.  MFC's policy presently is to treat 'same-sex couples as equals.'  The board was polled regarding this policy and one member's response was 'based on his personal beliefs and the Bible he studies, he does not believe equality extends to same-sex marriage and it is not something he would personally endorse.'

Personally, I think it unwise to take a 'wait and see' attitude as Doug's minions continue to stack the deck.  MFC's policy should be cemented now so that no matter how much of Doug's influence infiltrates the board that same-sex couples will continue to be treated as equals by the MFC ad infinitum.

-Scott 

Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 08:04:19 -0700
From: paul.rumelhart at gmail.com
To: moscowcares at moscow.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Keeping church and state of mind separate in Moscow

I have an idea.  Why don't we wait and chastise those Christ Church-affiliated board members *after* they propose doing whatever evil things you think they are going to propose?  That way, we're judging them based on their actions, and not their religious affiliation and our own fears and prejudices.

Just a thought.

Paul

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 4:40 AM, Moscow Cares <moscowcares at moscow.com> wrote:
Bill London's Debate With Christ Church's Doug Wilson (January 27, 2004)http://www.moscowcares.com/Bill_London/London_Wilson_Debate_KUOI_012704.htm
Courtesy of today's (May 19, 2015) Moscow-Pullman Daily News.
--------------------------------------Our View: Keeping church and state of mind separate in MoscowBy Lee Rozen , for the Editorial BoardBy embracing the vibe of peace, love, funky stuff and local, natural foods whenever possible, the Moscow Food Co-op has become a local institution that helps define the zeitgeist of the city.Much more than do the city's 17 fast-food joints, the co-op helps define Moscow for many of its residents - as do the old brick 1912 Center and City Hall, Tye-Dye Everything, bicycle shops, the University of Idaho, the Farmers Market, One World Cafe and East City Park's festivals.The co-op's stature as one of the defining organizations downtown has led to some angst recently that it might change - or be changed. Being a co-op, it is owned and run by its members, most of whom note who is running in the elections for its board each year and then don't bother to vote.So far, that's worked. But this year, two of the three new board members are affiliated with Christ Church. Another member of the board is, also.So what, you might ask? Is it a problem if there are a bunch of Methodists or Wiccans on the board? The Christ Church members didn't reveal their church affiliation during the election, but then neither did any other member or candidate for the board.The concern has to do with the nature of Christ Church, led by the gay-baiting Pastor Doug Wilson. The co-op's personnel policies have always been rather inclusive of nearly any lifestyle choice. Christ Church not so much. There's concern that a fourth member on the seven-member board from Christ Church might want to change those personnel policies, among other things.It's almost like Monsanto, that company of caustic chemicals and genetically modified seeds for corporate farms, suddenly had three affiliates on the co-op board. And they just hadn't thought it important to mention that connection.Wilson in the past has made statements - whether hyperbolic or not - about Moscow being the right size town because it was both capable of and worth being taken over in the course of 35 years or so. People remember.New Saint Andrews, Logos, Bucer's, Nuart and Anselm House are all also associated with the Christ Church organization. Hardly overwhelming.There are many who don't want the co-op to be next. We're among them.--------------------------------------
Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares" http://www.MoscowCares.com  Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho 
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=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
======================================================= 		 	   		  

=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
======================================================= 		 	   		  
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