[Vision2020] Rand Paul
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Thu Mar 7 13:42:10 PST 2013
I don't have time to respond right now, but google "drones signature strikes". Many, if not most, of the drone strikes that happen in Pakistan and Yemen are based solely on "signatures". Unnamed individuals that look like "terrorists" based on some unknown criteria. Tell me with a straight face that if they don't know who they actually are that they somehow know that they are an "imminent threat".
Just to make sure we're on the same page, I don't have a problem with using drones to attack people that are actively attacking our soldiers. They should be treated the same as all of our other weapons. If you can't legally send some commandos in to take them out, then you can't do it by drone strike, either.
Paul
________________________________
From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Cc: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2013 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
Your response does not fit the scenario, Mr. Rumelhart.
The "confirmed intelligence" which I cited in my example is always classified. Being classified, it is not available either to the general public or Faux News.
What source do you have that even implies the criteria you suggest?
You have absolutely no idea of what information is known or not known, as it should be.
Information is classified for a reason.
Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
http://www.MoscowCares.com
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
- John Lennon
On Mar 7, 2013, at 10:46 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
Two points:
>
>1. If the rule of law forbids the killing of that person in that way, then you are advocating for murder.
>
>2. I don't believe that our President has anything close to the intel that you are assuming here. We don't even know the identities of most of the targets of the drone strikes, excluding even the collateral damage, so I doubt we have enough intel to know exactly what they are planning. Their criteria seems to be "if he looks like a terrorist, and he walks like a terrorist, then he must be taken out".
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>Cc: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>; Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2013 10:22 AM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
>
>
>So, Mr. Rumelhart . . .
>
>
>Your letter to the next of kin of each of those soldiers killed at the observation post would be prefaced with "Mistakes happen . . . "?
>
>
>Would you personally deliver these letters or send them "Postage Due"?
>
>
>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
>
>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>http://www.MoscowCares.com
>
>Tom Hansen
>Moscow, Idaho
>
>
>"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
>
>- John Lennon
>
>
>
>On Mar 7, 2013, at 9:47 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>What if we got "confirmed intelligence" that you were about to do the same thing? Mistakes happen, that's why we have courts of law, and rules, and that Constitution thing.
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>>To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>>Cc: "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2013 9:02 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
>>
>>
>>I stand by my statements, Sunil.
>>
>>
>>If it were determined that the lives of soldiers at a forward observation post could have been saved, based on confirmed intelligence that a member of al-Qaeda (a US citizen) was going to infiltrate and destroy that post (at the cost of American lives). And the only way to prevent this from occurring was to kill the perpetrator . . .
>>
>>
>>Would you take that final, yet necessary action?
>>
>>
>>If not, how could you explain your failure to act?
>>
>>
>>'Nuff said.
>>
>>
>>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>
>>
>>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>>http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>
>>Tom Hansen
>>Moscow, Idaho
>>
>>
>>"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>>If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>
>>
>>- John Lennon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Tom,
>>>I'm not at all confused. How do you know anything you say in your first paragraph is true? These are claims the state makes. They are judge, jury, and prosecutor. There is NO due process.
>>>
>>>And what of the civilians we kill? That's okay?
>>>
>>>Please don't say I'm confused about this. I'm just done being partisan.
>>>
>>>Sunil
>>>
>>>>>>________________________________
>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>From: thansen at moscow.com
>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
>>>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 07:57:13 -0800
>>>To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>Let me clarify some confusion you may be experiencing, Sunil.
>>>
>>>
>>>If a US citizen has been proven to be a member of a terrorist organization and is involved in activity the purpose of which it is to kill US citizens (or citizens of a country allied to the US), under the most extreme of situations, after all options have been considered, and after all potential outcomes have been weighed, application of the absolute final option may become a necessity against that US citizen . . . if that citizen is located outside the judicial jurisdiction of the United States; in which case I am certain that the authorities (i.e. local police, county sheriff, state police, FBI, etc) apply a concept very similar to the one I have explained.
>>>
>>>
>>>In the case of the Bush-Cheney rationales for torturing people in which case torture is managed like a game show . . .
>>>
>>>
>>>"Tell us, Colonel Jacobs. Who's the next contestant on 'Tell Us or Die'?"
>>>
>>>
>>>"Khalid Shaikh Mohammed come on down."
>>>
>>>
>>>-------------------------------------
>>>
>>>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>>
>>>
>>>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>>>http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>>
>>>Tom Hansen
>>>Moscow, Idaho
>>>
>>>
>>>"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>>>If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>>
>>>
>>>- John Lennon
>>>
>>>
>>>On Mar 7, 2013, at 6:39 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Oh, I'm familiar with it. This is the horseshit the Administration spreads. Horseshit. They don't provide proof of their charges. They don't allow challenges before they kill.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you agree with their rationales for killing people, you agree with the Bush-Cheney rationales for torturing people.
>>>>>
>>>>>Do you?
>>>>>
>>>>>Sunil
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>From: moscowcares at moscow.com
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
>>>>>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 06:26:36 -0800
>>>>>To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Courtesy of a link from your source, Sunil . . .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>><image.jpeg>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>As disgusting as this practice may be, the absolute final option may (in EXTREME circumstances) become necessary. Potential outcomes, when one reaches the proverbial "Y" in the road of circumstances, must be weighed against each other.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>For instance, young children (less than 16 years of age) were often used by the North Vietnamese during the Vietnam war in carrying explosives strapped to their bodies onto US observation posts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>War NEVER determines who is right, Sunil, only who is left.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>>>>>http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>>>>
>>>>>Tom Hansen
>>>>>Moscow, Idaho
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>>>>>If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>- John Lennon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Mar 7, 2013, at 5:59 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Tom,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Are you kidding me? Okay, here's one link:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/05/16856963-american-drone-deaths-highlight-controversy?lite
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As the article points out, we also killed Al Awlaki's 16 year old son in a separate attack.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But this isn't the first time I've brought this up here; you should hardly be in the dark about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sunil
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>From: thansen at moscow.com
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
>>>>>>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013
05:52:49 -0800
>>>>>>To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Perhaps, Sunil, you should provide evidence that the Obama administration is responsible for killing US citizens, or a US citizen, in the absence of due process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I suggest this because I am not the one making an allegation. You are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Here is the letter sent from Attorney General Eric Holder to Rand Paul (dated March 4, 2013 - less than 72 hours ago).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://paul.senate.gov/files/documents/BrennanHolderResponse.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>>>>>>http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tom Hansen
>>>>>>Moscow, Idaho
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>>>>>>If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>- John Lennon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mar 7, 2013, at 5:33 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You have not proven your point. This is an administration that does not reveal information. If or when they kill a citizen without due process, they will not provide all the reasons or evidence they claim supports them. They will just tell us they needed to do it, and that will be it. They won't allow their decisions to be challenged. They regularly don't even acknowledge that drone attacks outside the US have even occurred.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sunil
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>>>CC: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>From: thansen at moscow.com
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
>>>>>>>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 05:16:05 -0800
>>>>>>>To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><215407_10151331874981275_1548944263_n.png>
>>>>>>>Like I've said before . . .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Paranoia, self-destroya.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>>>>>>>http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Tom Hansen
>>>>>>>Moscow, Idaho
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>>>>>>>If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>- John Lennon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Mar 7, 2013, at 5:01 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm suspicious of R Paul. Why did he make it simply a domestic concern? What exactly is the number of people that we've killed in the US with drones? Say what you wish but the problem that Rand actually talked about is not a pressing issue at the time (not as pressing as the economy for instance) IMO. The timing is curious.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>No one who has posted on the thread is in favor of the current drone policy. When it comes to drones, my concern has more to do with the death of innocents than with the issue of rights but we've killed far more innocents without drones than with them. I didn't here R Paul talk about that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I don't see how the innocent folks who died in the initial Iraq invasion are merely an acceptable cost of war but when an innocent dies from a drone intended for a terrorist, that is atrocious. To me the Iraq war was and is one horrible mistake and drones are just part of that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Given the timing and the content of the speech, R Paul's comments strike me as purely political.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Mar 6, 2013, at 10:23 PM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I'm with Paul R and R Paul on this. Like Paul R, when I read Sen. Paul's statement, my regret was that he limits his concern to US citizens on US soil. We should be concerned about these atrocities wherever they occur. This, and his expansion of the security state and executive power, and his refusal to prosecute torturers (but his willingness to prosecute those who expose it) led me to vote for Jill Stein in the last election. That was the first time since 1980, when I could first vote, that I didn't vote for the Democratic Party candidate. And I'm not coming back while the Democrats embrace and take Bush-Cheney policies to heart.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Sunil
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>>>>>Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:43:14 -0800
>>>>>>>>>From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>To: donaldrose at cpcinternet.com
>>>>>>>>>CC: Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Showboating", huh? Whatever.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The vast amount of drone strikes overseas have either been against
people on their kill list going about their day, not currently
involved in a violent attack, or they have been against people
they can't identify but that they are reasonably sure are
terrorists because of their associations. Again, not taking them
out while they are actively engaged in combat, just assassinating
them wherever they happen to find them, doing whatever they happen
to be doing at that moment. Doing the dishes, blam, dead, along
with who knows how many people nearby. No due process, no vetting
of evidence, no jury of their peers, no idea even what criteria
our President uses to determine who gets to die that day.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Nobody I've seen is saying that we can't use drones, even on
American soil, against people actively involved in combat. The
problem is that that isn't what they are being used for.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>If you want to wish this away as some kind of stunt because he's a
Paul or because he's a Republican or because you don't like his
haircut, then you're part of the problem. Our President is out of
control with these assassinations, and our police departments are
out of control in their militarization. Drop the damned Us vs.
Them crap, please.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On 03/06/2013 06:06 PM, Rosemary Huskey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Should there be a disclaimer with this “purist’s” showboating? Where does shooting someone in self-defense, or those occasions when law enforcement officers are forced by a critically dangerous situation (for example a gun battle) to shoot to kill come into this equation? I am sure that Rand will zoon right to the top of the list of right wing nutbags with this stunt.
>>>>>>>>>>Rose
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>From:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Paul Rumelhart
>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 5:55 PM
>>>>>>>>>>To: Vision 2020
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I found this on Google+, I didn't make it and I don't claim it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I don't agree with this guy on everything by any means and I
wish he'd left out the "on American soil" part, but I am
behind him on this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><ATT00001>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>>
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