[Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)

[Joe Campbell]

The person who identifies them is the confused one.

On Jun 1, 2013, at 1:40 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> You are confusing norms (what should be the case) with facts about the universe (what is the case).
> 
> Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 10:53:25 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)
> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> To: godshatter at yahoo.com
> CC: scooterd408 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> 
> 
> If the creation story you are supposing is true, then NO ONE is a (true) creator of anything other than God. We are all just characters in God's "program." Computer programmers are no more the ultimate cause of their programs than parents are of their children. To the extent that computer programmers are justified in "killing" their programs by virtue of "creating" them -- and this supports the idea that God is justified in killing humans -- the same principle should apply to parents, as well. Yet it clearly doesn't apply to parents.
> 
> Thus, either the principle is false (as I maintain) or it is at least not supported by your example. In fact, you can't find an example to support the principle since there is only one true creator (according to your creation story). Nothing in the set of your cumulative life experiences could provide the basis for such a principle.
> 
> Again, I'm just trying to make a point similar to the one that Nick made in his original post, or maybe I'm extending that point a bit. Really our only understanding of morality comes from the human realm, as your attempt to support the principle in question suggests. (I'm not saying morality is a human creation, just that our moral understanding is limited by our experiences.) If we apply those moral principles to God, then the problem of evil suggests that some religious views are problematic. But not all, as Nick notes. People try to get around this by making up crazy moral principles that give God a unique moral status but it is unclear how those principles could be supported. Nick did a good job of showing that some of those principles have absurd consequences. My point is that they aren't and can't be support by appeal to common sense examples, nor anything else as far as I can see.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
> In my analogy, the parent is just another character in the video game.  They didn't program it, they just made use of an existing subroutine to generate another character.  The programmer(s) that made game is a different story.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> 
> Cc: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>; viz <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 9:54 PM
> 
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)
> 
> The "I created it, I can kill it" rule doesn't work for parents, right?
> 
> On May 31, 2013, at 8:10 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> The way I view it, since God created the universe and everything in it, then if anyone has the right to kill one of the denizens therein, God does.  Especially since, to Him, He's just moving us from one place to another (earth to heaven or hell).  It would be like saying that a computer programmer doesn't have the right to kill off the characters in the video game he's writing.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> To: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> 
> Cc: viz <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 6:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)
> 
> You are confusing descriptive facts about the world (what is the case) with norms (what should be the case).
> 
> On May 30, 2013, at 7:38 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 'Might makes right' is irrespective of a belief in God.  It's an irrefutable fact of life, the universe, and everything.  It holds true for your rhetorical question of 'can [God] not take our bodies away at will' and Joe's scenario about killing your own dog if you so choose.  It doesn't really matter one wit if someone deems that someone else 'has no right' to do something.  All that some else (or entity) needs is means, motive, opportunity, and - above all else - the power to do it.
> 
> Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 18:50:04 -0700
> From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)
> To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com; scooterd408 at hotmail.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> 
> Only if you don't believe in God.
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
> 
> From: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>; 
> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; philosopher.joe at gmail.com <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>; 
> Cc: viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>; 
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?) 
> Sent: Fri, May 31, 2013 1:37:55 AM 
> 
> Might makes right.
> 
> Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 00:41:29 -0700
> From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping'	(really?)
> 
> Didn't say kill it Joe. We didn't create dogs we simple capture them and call them our own. We do modify the bodies of dogs. And we do kill our pets and other animals under conditions we deem proper.
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
> 
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>; 
> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; 
> Cc: Nicholas Gier <ngier006 at gmail.com>; vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>; 
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?) 
> Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 4:55:07 PM 
> 
> Donovan asks: "... since we are also the property of God, can he not take our bodies away at will?"
> 
> No. Even if you own a dog, you can't just kill it because you want to do so. Sorry.
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't think God punishes us with tornadoes, floods, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Most of these deaths are almost 100% human fault. We know where floods, earthquakes and volcanoes are located, yet choose to still build crappy buildings and live there. Tornado deaths are now usually the fault of global warming, caused by humans, and the collapse of buildings, built by humans in tornado prone areas. God doesn't create the deadly situation, humans do. Any human saved from the consequences of human action can be considered an act of God. However, let us also consider that since we are also the property of God, can he not take our bodies away at will? To God, nothing dies, it just changes shape
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