[Vision2020] Zimmerman/Martin (was: "Global Warming: The North Pole is now a lake")
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Thu Jul 25 21:37:45 PDT 2013
OMG. If the criteria for being suspicious is cutting between houses during
the rain, that is even worse than any kind of racism. I'm sure you're going
to find a lot of 17-year-olds who would be suspects under those conditions
-- and some 50-year-olds, as well. Anyway, thanks for the clarifications
Scott and Wayne! I do think getting the facts right is helpful.
The more I know about this case the more irresponsible Zimmerman seems to
be. But I'm still not sure that he broke any laws. So much the worse for
the laws, IMO.
For the record, I don't think that Zimmerman was racist for the simple
reason that I know NOTHING about him. I have a hard time believing that
Martin's hoodie didn't play a role, so there is a racist element there. And
the investigation had racist overtones, IMO, that benefited Zimmerman.
Perhaps we can move to way of talking about these issues where, instead of
calling any particular person "racist," we could honestly talk about how
race played a role in the Zimmerman/Martin tragedy -- played a role in
Martin's being deemed a suspect, and in the investigation. That strikes me
as an honest assessment. Maybe talking this way will help us to sooner get
to the point where it doesn't play a role in situations like this in the
future.
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>wrote:
> George Zimmerman answered it. It doesn't mean anything. He had time to
> concoct whatever story he wished, if you want to assume that he was not
> being truthful with this answer. He also wasn't under oath, not that it
> would be an iron clad fail safe for truth telling even if he were.
>
> Anyway your question is: 'What was it about Trayvon Martin that made
> George Zimmerman think of him (Martin) as one of those "fucking punks that
> always gets away"?'
>
> Zimm's response to the question is: 'I felt he was suspicious because it
> was raining. He was in-between houses, cutting in-between houses, and he
> was walking very leisurely for the weather. ... It didn't look like he was
> a resident that went to check their mail and got caught in the rain and was
> hurrying back home. He didn't look like a fitness fanatic that would train
> in the rain.'
>
> So the question is answered, it's just his word against your own version
> of what you think his thoughts were that night.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: thansen at moscow.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 17:32:36 -0700
> To: bear at moscow.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Zimmerman/Martin (was: "Global Warming: The
> North Pole is now a lake")
>
>
> Yet, the question remains . . . unanswered.
>
> Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
>
> On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:17 PM, Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com> wrote:
>
> I know that facts rarely get into this discussion, but for the record: No
> actually the neighborhood Trayon was in while visiting his father truly
> belong to his father's girlfriend. Trayvon is from the urban portion of
> Miami. Martin was there with this father, at the invitation of his
> father's girlfriend. He had ever right to be there. Zimmerman did live
> there. Both had every legal right to be there.
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 25, 2013, at 4:33 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>
> Quick simplequestion . . .
>
> What was it about Trayvon Martin that made George Zimmerman think of him
> (Martin) as one of those "fucking punks that always gets away"?
>
> And don't tell me that he (Martin) was peeking into local houses. Trayvon
> Martin lives in the immediate neighborhood, FOR CHRIST's SAKE! I don't
> buy that "peeking into local houses" crap that Zimmerman was hyping.
>
> Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
>
> On Jul 25, 2013, at 3:34 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> In the Zimmerman case, there are two basic stories. Zimmerman contends
> that he was attacked by Martin and forced to defend himself when Martin saw
> his gun. There is evidence to support their altercation: Zimmerman's
> broken nose and lacerated head, blood on Martin's fist, water on
> Zimmerman's back and legs.
>
> The other story is that Zimmerman stalked Martin, and gunned him down.
> How did Zimmerman get his injuries if that was the case? Did he attack
> Martin first? Why does Martin have no other injuries? Did they fight for
> the gun? Is there any evidence for that? Etc. Yet everyone assumes this
> to be true because Zimmerman is white and Martin is black (while at the
> same time calling Zimmerman out for being a racist).
>
> I don't know how dire the threat was to Zimmerman's life. But since every
> indication I've come across indicates that Martin attacked Zimmerman, then
> it doesn't really matter to me. If you attack someone, one of the things
> that might happen is that they might be armed and try to defend
> themselves. Trying to draw an exact line blow-by-blow in the fight seems
> counterproductive to me. If someone is actively beating on you, I don't
> think it's too much of a stretch to think your life might be in danger or
> you might get grievously injured if the fight continued. Plus there's the
> "you're going to die tonight" thing that may or may not have happened.
> It's tragic, but I can't lay this one down at Zimmerman's feet like
> everyone here, the media, and even the President want me to do. Martin is
> just as responsible for his own death. They both could have avoided this.
>
> Anyway, I thought we were discussing climate change and attempts to
> moderate it. I have no wish to slog through the crap that is the
> Martin/Zimmerman debate any more. You can all have fun denigrating
> Zimmerman on your own. Fuck Zimmerman! Woohoo!
>
> Paul
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at frontier.com>; viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 3:10 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Global Warming: The North Pole is now a lake.
>
> But you supported Zimmerman. He did something drastic precisely because he
> felt a threat. There it didn't matter much if the treat was real -- you
> never gave objective data about a treat; nor did you seem to care. His
> feeling of being threatened was enough to justify his excessive actions.
>
> On Jul 25, 2013, at 2:19 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> There are certain generic precautions that could be taken, such as making
> sure the door is locked and the outside lights are on, etc. This would be
> equivalent to beefing up our readiness levels for natural disasters and
> making sure we have food stored and so forth. It's helpful anyway.
>
> Before I did anything drastic, though, I would want knowledge that there
> actually is a guy out there with a gun before I did anything drastic.
> Action for the sake of action can be just as dangerous as inaction. The
> guy-with-a-gun equivalent would be shooting at a target without knowing if
> that target is a threat. The global-warming equivalent would be imposing a
> drastic carbon-trading scheme (for example) that cripples our economy,
> after which we find out it was really just a 100-year-long blip in the data
> after all.
>
> Paul
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at frontier.com>; viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 2:10 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Global Warming: The North Pole is now a lake.
>
> Suppose you think you see a man outside with a gun. Half the folks think
> it is a man with a fun, the other half have no idea what it is. What do you
> do? Does the fact that IF you are correct, your life might be in danger
> figure into the decision? In other words, if the risk of not believing is
> great, wouldn't you want to err on the side of caution given that half the
> folks think there is danger?
>
> On Jul 25, 2013, at 11:39 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Every year ice melts on large stretches of the ice cap where it cannot
> drain into the ocean. It forms ponds, puddles, lakes, whatever you want to
> call them. This happens at the North Pole as well as at other locations on
> the ice pack. This is one of the reasons determining sea ice area is
> difficult. It's hard to tell ocean water from water-on-top-of-the-ice
> sometimes. Currently, both the sea ice extent and sea ice area numbers are
> higher than they were last year and higher than they were in 2011 or 2007.
> Here is a nice place where a lot of the charts are linked to from the same
> source: http://wattsupwiththat.com/reference-pages/sea-ice-page/ I must
> warn you that Ted hates this website, but since it's a bunch of links to
> data from official sciency-type places, I think it's OK to start there.
>
> I tend to watch the NORSEX SSM/I extent and area charts, since those are
> the charts I've been following for a few years now. There are also lots of
> other interesting graphs, as well as the webcam images from the north pole
> used in the article. If you go there and look at the two web cams right
> now, you'll see that only one looks like it's in a lake. The other one
> looks to be safely on solid ice/snow pack.
>
> I don't say this out of some sort of effort to promote climate denialism
> in an attempt to wreak havoc on the framework of American Life and to lead
> your kids to rock music, I say it to stem the "OMG! The North Pole is a
> lake! We're all dooooomed!" hysteria. I have no idea how this year will
> turn out in terms of minimum extent or area compared to previous years, but
> I'd rather look at the pretty graphs than take all my information from a
> webcam image.
>
> Paul
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1 at frontier.com>
> *To:* viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:37 AM
> *Subject:* [Vision2020] Global Warming: The North Pole is now a lake.
>
> If ever there was any doubt in your mind about global warming, consider
> this news:
> The North Pole, that great bastion of eternal cold and barren ice, is a
> lake.
> It’s a shallow lake. It’s a cold lake. But it is, actually, a lake.
> According to the North Pole Environmental Observatory<http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/index.html>,
> the summer ice is melting away at unprecedented rates. The sea of snow is
> now meltwater.
>
> http://o.canada.com/2013/07/24/the-north-pole-is-now-a-lake/
>
>
> Ken
>
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