[Vision2020] Debate Tonight

[Daniel Foucachon]

Mr. Hansen, my mistake - I quickly searched through the archives and it was
Ralph Nielson. (I did say "I think" - sorry about that though).

*Ralph Nielsen* nielsen at uidaho.edu
<vision2020%40moscow.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BVision2020%5D%20%22Is%20civil%20marriage%20for%20gay%20couples%20good%20for%20society%3F%22&In-Reply-To=%3C602FC1EC-25E8-4A33-8A1B-BE8626AEBF2B%40uidaho.edu%3E>
*Sun Feb 24 16:16:38 PST 2013*
*
*

These "debates" are rigged affairs put on by the religious right to
strengthen the "faith" of their followers, not to enlighten the
general public. Fundies will be bussed in from the hinterland to fill
the SUB Ballroom.

The title itself of the "debate" is loaded: "Is civil marriage for gay
couples good for society?" We all know what Wilson and his ilk think
is "good for society."

The format is also rigged. It gives the public the illusion that there
are exactly two sides to an issue, each side holding the same weight.
And last but not least, the question period is usually short and also
rigged. The moderator chooses which questions will be read and
answered; we can be certain the Christian has already prepared a great
rhetorical response to them.

I think you'll find this web site useful. Wilson is definitely not
William Lane Craig, but New Saint Andrews has always been strong on
rhetoric, its students have achieved high ratings on national mock
courtroom argumentation. So be warned.

Loving Christianity Better Than Truth: The Craig-Price Debate | Tragic Farce

Personally, I'm staying home. I live close enough to the SUB to walk
over but I'm staying home. I've already seen Doug in action, I've
watched a few "debates" on YouTube, and I feel sure this one will also
be loaded onto the net by you know who.

Ralph



On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 11:56 AM, <vision2020-request at moscow.com> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Debate tonight (Tom Hansen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:56:34 -0800
> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
> To: Daniel Foucachon <foucachon at gmail.com>
> Cc: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Debate tonight
> Message-ID: <F3477DF0-61EB-49C9-B1B5-D81799CB8917 at moscow.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Daniel Foucachon stated:
>
> "There will be a 45 min public QA, and with two lines: 1 for questions for
> Doug Wilson, one for Andrew Sullivan. I specify this because someone (I
> think Tom Hansen) was sure that the QA would somehow be rigged."
>
> Nope.  Not me. But then, it's not like I expect you to substantiate your
> allegation.
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares"
> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>
> Tom "Proud to be a Filthy Liberal Scum" Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
> On Feb 27, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Daniel Foucachon <foucachon at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I hope some of you are planning on attending the debate tonight between
> Andrew Sullivan and Doug Wilson. Peter Hitchens (brother of the late
> Christopher Hitchens) is moderating.
> >
> > 7:30 at SUB. There will be a 45 min public QA, and with two lines: 1 for
> questions for Doug Wilson, one for Andrew Sullivan. I specify this because
> someone (I think Tom Hansen) was sure that the QA would somehow be rigged.
> Come, bring your questions!
> >
> > Topic: Is Homosexual Marriage Good for Society?
> >
> > Promo video: http://youtu.be/aui5APspcI8
> >
> > -Daniel
> >
> > Sent from iPhone
> >
> > On Feb 27, 2013, at 11:39, vision2020-request at moscow.com wrote:
> >
> >> Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to
> >>    vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>
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> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>    vision2020-request at moscow.com
> >>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >>    vision2020-owner at moscow.com
> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> than "Re: Contents of Vision2020 digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >>   1. Re: Wayne Krauss (Saundra Lund)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:39:22 -0800
> >> From: "Saundra Lund" <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> >> To: "'Darrell Keim'" <keim153 at gmail.com>, "'Art Deco'"
> >>    <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> >> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wayne Krauss
> >> Message-ID: <015801ce1522$2540fb10$6fc2f130$@ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>
> >> Sorry, Darrell - we're going to have to agree to disagree about this.
>  About
> >> a month ago, I did a relatively in-depth critique of Krauss' inane
> comments
> >> about what's wrong in America, and in that critique, I pointed out that
> I'd
> >> attended a forum some years back when Krauss asked intelligent comments
> &
> >> offered intelligent responses.  Unfortunately, that's behavior I've not
> seen
> >> from Krauss in quite a few years now.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> You wrote:
> >>
> >> "I agree with the sentiment he attempted to express.  Why can't we work
> with
> >> the simple rule already expressed in our countries founding document:
> treat
> >> others with basic dignity and decency. "
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The answer to that question seems pretty clear to me:  it's because the
> dogs
> >> Krauss & his pals have chosen to lie down with don't believe in treating
> >> people equally.  You know the type:  those who think that their
> >> interpretation of the Bible allows them to condemn the LGBTQ community
> - and
> >> many other groups -- and deny them equal protection under the law.
> Those who
> >> don't support marriage equality and gender equality and equal pay for
> equal
> >> work.  Those who think that the government have no business regulating
> >> weapons but has every right to stick their prurient noses into the
> >> Constitutionally guaranteed reproductive choices of women.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I have no idea what Krauss' views are on those issues, but the fact
> remains
> >> that when Krauss voluntarily choose to ally with people who are against
> >> those Constitutional protections, and then he makes stupid comments (I
> >> watched the videos Tom posted, so I'm quite aware of the context, which
> >> isn't quite as bad as the DN article, but still isn't good by any
> stretch),
> >> the push-back is more than deserved.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Saundra
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:
> vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> >> On Behalf Of Darrell Keim
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:04 AM
> >> To: Art Deco
> >> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wayne Krauss
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I happened to sit next to Wayne yesterday when someone asked him to
> explain
> >> his remarks.  He elaborated that his point was that we shouldn't need to
> >> have special protections for different groups.  We should hold
> ourselves to
> >> the standard of treating all people equally, which our Constitution
> already
> >> guarantees.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> While his quote in the paper makes him sound like an idiot (reporters
> have a
> >> way of doing this-context is SO important), I agree with the sentiment
> he
> >> attempted to express.  Why can't we work with the simple rule already
> >> expressed in our countries founding document: treat others with basic
> >> dignity and decency.  The guy is not nearly the troglodyte he is being
> made
> >> out to be.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Aside from its gross insensitivity and ignorance the remarks provide a
> >> revelation about Krauss's personal feelings and the lack of comment
> implying
> >> consent by the other semi-conscious officials present, this is part of a
> >> longer saga.
> >>
> >> There is hardly a month that has gone by since he took office and made a
> >> fool of himself starting with his participation and remarks in the
> Hawkins
> >> scandal, that Wayne Krauss hasn't provided ample evidence of the long
> >> circulating characterization of him that as the former manager of the
> >> Goodyear store he was hit in the head too hard and too many times with a
> >> tire iron.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> w.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> What a horse's rear end Krauss continues to show himself to be.
>  Disgusting.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Here's the article Roger Hayes referred to:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Antidiscrimination ordinance vetted by committee
> >>
> >>
> >> By Brandon Macz, Daily News staff writer | Posted: Tuesday, February 26,
> >> 2013 12:00 am
> >>
> >> Considering an ordinance to make housing and job discrimination based on
> >> sexual orientation or gender identity a criminal offense in Moscow,
> >> Councilor Wayne Krauss asked City Attorney Randy Fife where demands for
> more
> >> protections would end.
> >>
> >> Krauss asked rhetorically whether someone bringing monkeys into a
> business
> >> and being refused service would require a discrimination ordinance for
> >> monkey owners.
> >>
> >> Fife laid out for the Administrative Committee on Monday details of his
> >> draft ordinance. Under the ordinance, an employer would not be allowed
> to
> >> refuse to hire or fire a person for their sexual orientation or gender
> >> identity, or to deny an employee advancement or training on that same
> basis.
> >> It would also prevent businesses from refusing to serve a person based
> on
> >> their sexual orientation or gender identity.
> >>
> >> On the housing side, refusal to sell, buy or rent property or to repair,
> >> maintain or improve it would also be prohibited if it were the result of
> >> such discrimination, Fife said.
> >>
> >> Exceptions include religious entities, other governments and agencies,
> >> boarding houses, private clubs or institutions and two-family dwellings,
> >> such as duplexes, where the property owner or a relative lives in one
> of the
> >> units.
> >>
> >> Krauss was curious about whether businesses, such as restaurants, which
> >> often display signs indicating their right to refuse service to anyone,
> >> could refuse to serve someone based on their sexual orientation or
> gender
> >> identity without disclosing that as the reason. Fife said if someone
> felt
> >> that was the reason for denial of service, they could file a complaint
> under
> >> the ordinance.
> >>
> >> "I hate any kind of bullying whatsoever, and discrimination is a form of
> >> bullying, in my mind," Krauss said.
> >>
> >> Krauss said he didn't like the idea of the city being forced to react
> to a
> >> continuous list of discriminatory grievances.
> >>
> >> "The question is, where does it stop?" Krauss said. "Why doesn't the
> 14th
> >> Amendment cover the whole darn thing?"
> >>
> >> The amendment says "No State shall deny to any person within its
> >> jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
> >>
> >> Fife said he prepared the draft after reviewing laws already on the
> books in
> >> Sandpoint, Boise and Salt Lake City and said he favored Boise's. The
> >> proposed ordinance would fill a gap in the federal and state human
> rights
> >> acts.
> >>
> >> Anyone believing themselves to be discriminated against because of their
> >> sexual orientation or gender identity would file a report with the
> Moscow
> >> Police Department, Fife said, which would conduct an investigation and
> file
> >> a report with the city prosecutor to validate whether the claim
> constitutes
> >> an offense under the ordinance.
> >>
> >> If so, mediation would be attempted between the two parties by the city
> >> attorney with the offender facing a misdemeanor if a resolution can't be
> >> met. If the defendant takes remediation steps, the penalty could be
> reduced
> >> to an infraction. Should both parties settle, the charge would be
> dismissed.
> >>
> >> "You want compliance, not punishment. That's the goal," Fife said,
> adding
> >> the criminal process might do better in a separate council resolution.
> >>
> >> Fife said pushes on the municipal level could force the issue in the
> Idaho
> >> Legislature, which has historically never passed an amendment to its
> human
> >> rights act covering sexual orientation and gender identity out of
> committee.
> >>
> >> "That's not going to happen, so we'll continue to legislate morality,"
> >> Krauss said.
> >>
> >> The draft ordinance will be reviewed by the city's Fair and Affordable
> >> Housing and Human Rights commissions before returning to the
> Administrative
> >> Committee to forward the draft to the full council.
> >>
> >> More Well No. 9 problems
> >>
> >> Public Works Director Les MacDonald reported the recently reinstalled
> Well
> >> No. 9 pump and motor have to be removed again after testing Friday
> knocked
> >> out power to the well house. Once power was restored, a ground fault was
> >> detected, which means something is short-circuiting the electricity
> being
> >> channeled through the pump and motor, he said.
> >>
> >> "It means we're in a different situation than before," MacDonald said.
> >>
> >> The pump was shut down in June when it stopped functioning and the
> motor was
> >> sent to be repaired by Alstra Technologies in Tempe, Ariz. It was
> >> reinstalled in late September, but was shut down again when the electric
> >> current became too high and caused the protection unit to shut it down.
> The
> >> motor was returned to Alstra and the pump was analyzed by a Spokane
> company
> >> before both were tested by another manufacturer in Arizona.
> >>
> >> The pump and motor were reinstalled in two weeks ago, but further
> testing in
> >> Moscow showed the electric current was still too high and a "whale song"
> >> noise occurred when it was reconnected to the system, MacDonald said.
> >> Following Friday's outage, he said removal of the pump and motor by
> crane
> >> began Monday and should be completed today. He added an outside
> consultant
> >> may need to be brought in to determine the city's next move. Well No. 9
> can
> >> produce up to 40 percent of the city's water.
> >>
> >>  _____
> >>
> >> Brandon Macz can be reached at (208) 882-5561, ext. 238
> >> <tel:%28208%29%20882-5561%2C%20ext.%20238> , or by email to
> bmacz at dnews.com.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> And, here's the letter to the editor Roger also referred to:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Basic human rights
> >>
> >> Posted: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:00 am
> >>
> >> Moscow City Councilor Wayne Krauss has implied that refusing service to
> >> monkey owners in a business setting is the same as denying fair housing
> and
> >> job rights to residents based on their sexual orientation or gender
> >> identity.
> >>
> >> As reported by Brandon Macz in "Antidiscrimination ordinance vetted,"
> (Daily
> >> News, Feb. 26): "Krauss asked rhetorically whether someone bringing
> monkeys
> >> into a business and being refused service would require a discrimination
> >> ordinance for monkey owners."
> >>
> >> You must be logged in with the proper services to print this article.
> >>
> >> Think about what he is really saying.
> >>
> >> Also, according to Macz, Krauss questions "legislating morality." Yet
> Krauss
> >> is forcing his own "morality" on public legislation, denying basic human
> >> rights to a sector of the population that he is being paid to serve.
> >>
> >> Please, Krauss, apologize for what you said and rethink your stance.
> >>
> >> Lisa Kliger
> >>
> >> Moscow
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:
> vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> >> On Behalf Of Rosemary Huskey
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:50 AM
> >> To: rhayes at frontier.com; 'Moscow Vision 2020'
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wayne Krauss
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I am gobsmacked about Wayne Krauss' remarks.  Where did he make them?
>  Thank
> >> you for letting 2020 readers know.
> >>
> >> Rose Huskey
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:
> vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> >> On Behalf Of rhayes at frontier.com
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:47 AM
> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Wayne Krauss
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> And yesterday Wayne Krauss was quoted that offering equal protection to
> all
> >> citizens including that of sexual identity and orientation to bringing
> >> monkeys to a restaurant and demanding service.
> >>
> >> In this case crackpot... and a sad reflection on our city council.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> For those with short memories:
> >>
> >> On a scale of 0 to 10 where 10 is the easiest to be hornswoggled
> Carscalen
> >> and Krauss are clearly 10s based on how Hawkins and Mr. Slime Steed
> (acting
> >> in the conflicting roles of city council person and *defacto* agent of
> his
> >> longtime associates Hawkins) hornswoggled the council into the
> sweetheart
> >> deal with the now never to be Hawkins mall against the fundamental
> >> interests of Idaho citizens.
> >>
> >> How do you choose a GOP leader? From the crackpots or the corrupt?
> >>
> >> w.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
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> >>               http://www.fsr.net
> >>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> >> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> >>
> >>  <http://users.moscow.com/waf/WP%20Fox%2001.jpg>
> >>
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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> >>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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> >>
> >>
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-- 
Daniel Foucachon
www.foucachon.com
daniel at foucachon.com
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