[Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Thu Feb 21 18:19:50 PST 2013
Which would you rather have if your life were on the line? A gun or a
stuffed animal?
Which would you rather have if your house was on fire? A fire
extinguisher or a stuffed animal? I mean, don't get me wrong, I like
stuffed animals as much as your normal middle-aged man, but don't you
think you'd rather have a smoke detector in case of a fire, a poncho if
you're stuck out in the weather while hiking, a donut tire if you get a
flat, an air bag if you get in a head-on collision, etc, etc? I mean,
maybe if you were being attacked by a band of rabid Japanese schoolgirls
having a stuffed animal with you that you could throw as a diversion
might actually be handy. I just can't think of too many other scenarios
where I'd need one.
Seriously, don't you think there's a utilitarian use to having a firearm
around?
Paul
On 02/21/2013 05:27 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
> People want guns for the same reason children want stuffed animals.
> They serve no practical use in most instances but it gives them a
> sense of security that nothing else can. Feeling secure and having a
> sense of some control is a necessity for many people. Some people
> don't or cannot control their environment and so are in constant
> danger or feel they are. A gun, returns some of the feeling back. It
> doesn't do anything for my sense of security. However, I still do have
> a couple of stuffed animals from my childhood and as gifts, so who am
> I to judge.
> Donovan J. Arnold
>
> *From:* Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>
> *To:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:21 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>
> I agree (I think) I rationally choose not to discard a potentially
> valuable tool based on how unlikely it is that I will need to apply it
> in any one specific application and as such refuse to play russian
> roulette.
> Likelihood of firearm as useful tool in home defense scenario
> <1/6 (doubtless far less given our community) but not =0
> Likelihood of firearm as useful tool when not available =0
> g
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> @Joe,
>
> Empirical evidence is important, and especially some general
> estimate of the risk.
>
> However, the general risk is different from a specific risk, and
> more important is the expected value of the risk
>
> If for example, I propose to ay you $100 if a throw of a die is
> greater than 1, but you pay me $100 if the throw equals 1.
>
> EV = (5/6)*100 - (1/6)*100 = $500, normally a very good bet for
> you in the long run, and little but some risk in a single trial.
>
> To see the relevancy of this to the present issue, just change the
> above game to Russian Roulette.
>
> The owner of a gun for protection despite the odds, rationally
> chooses not to pay Russian Roulette.
>
> w.
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Gary Crabtree
> <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com <mailto:moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> In and of itself, no. If he grins, pulls a knife and advances,
> most likely the answer will be a reluctant yes.
> I realize full well how unlikely it is that a home defense
> scenario is, living on the sleepy Palouse and own firearms for
> reasons that go beyond protection. I simply do not want my
> rights curtailed based on the shaky statistical argument of
> lack of need.
> g
>
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 6:50 AM, Joe Campbell
> <philosopher.joe at gmail.com <mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> So if the intoxicated college student who wanders into
> your home says "Or what?" your plan is to shoot him?
>
> You keep missing this point: the scenario that you imagine
> is improbable. There are other more probable scenarios
> where you end up harming yourself or an innocent victim
> rather than protecting yourself.
>
> On Feb 21, 2013, at 5:43 AM, "Gary Crabtree"
> <jampot at roadrunner.com <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>> wrote:
>
>> The point that you and most of the other anti-firearm
>> respondents continually miss is that I, nor Paul or Roger
>> are not advocating the Fearless Fosdick/LAPD tactic of
>> firing a warning shot into the back of the head of our
>> lovable and slightly confused/intoxicated intruder. What
>> I, and I believe the others are saying is that a weapon
>> can be a usefull tool in certain situations and while
>> some may elect to not have that tool at their disposal, I
>> would like to be able to have it as one of my options.
>> Any sane person would prefer that an intruder in their
>> home simply leave when told. Having a weapon forestalls
>> the intruders potential response of "or what."
>> g
>>
>> *From:* Donovan Arnold <mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:28 PM
>> *To:* Gary Crabtree <mailto:moscowlocksmith at gmail.com> ;
>> Art Deco <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>
>> I guess that would work if you sat behind your door with
>> a gun waiting for an unexpected guest. The smartest thing
>> to do if you suspect people are trying to get into your
>> house would be to exit through the nearest door or
>> window. Then call the police. When they exit the house
>> the police will be there to nab them, or you can slash
>> their tires and have fun watching them trying to escape
>> with your insured television.
>> Keep in mind, if you shoot an unarmed person that is not
>> 100% in your house you are in legal trouble. A dead body
>> in your house will be cleaned up and removed at your
>> expense, and it isn't cheap. And you will have to
>> disclose the death on the sale of the home, which will
>> cost you $10,000s. You will have to live with the fact
>> that you probably killed an innocent person. Chances are
>> someone that entered your home unexpectedly in
>> Moscow would be an intoxicated college student whose
>> biggest threat would be vomits on your living room carpet.
>> There are countless risks for getting into a gun battle
>> with an unknown person, the risks of insuring your
>> belongs and beating feet at the sign of danger are much
>> less and have far better outcomes. I'm not against owning
>> a gun, but that scenario is a stupid reason to use a gun.
>> I would use a gun if I was out of the immediate reach of
>> the police and there was a clear and present danger to my
>> life or the life of another. With the possible exception
>> if I was robbed constantly with no help from the police
>> or insurance companies.
>> Donovan J. Arnold
>>
>> *From:* Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com
>> <mailto:moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>>
>> *To:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>> <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>>
>> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:33 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>
>> The problem does not seem at all insurmountable.
>>
>> Problem, person(s) force entry to ones home without
>> invitation.
>> Solution. Point weapon in general direction of intruder
>> and request (insist) they leave.
>> Outcome. They comply or they do not.
>> Compliance equals positive resolution to problem.
>> Noncompliance results in negative outcome for intruder.
>> The real problem stems from not having the proper tools
>> to affect the desired outcome.
>> g
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Art Deco
>> <art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>> <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> The problem of dealing with intruders involves
>> sometimes a dangerous lack of information.
>>
>> Is the intruder armed?
>>
>> Is there more than one?
>>
>> What are the intentions of of the intruder?
>>
>> Who is the intruder? Is she/he someone known? What
>> is the relevant history of the intruder?
>>
>> Are there effective/non-lethal ways of neutralizing
>> the intruder?
>>
>> How can those intruded upon calculate the the risk to
>> themselves, and decide upon the action to be taken?
>>
>>
>> w.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Joe Campbell
>> <philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>> <mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> These are empirically claims. Could be that
>> pulling out a gun increases your risk. It depends
>> on a lot of factors.
>>
>> The big question is: does the potential for help
>> outweigh the risk of harm?
>>
>> And I hate to tell you that in a region with a
>> low incidence of gun violence, the answer is
>> 'No.' Paul's weapons are more likely to cause him
>> harm than they are to protect him.
>>
>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:05 AM, Gary Crabtree
>> <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com
>> <mailto:moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> Once "he" becomes aware of said gun it becomes a
>>> powerful deterrent to staying in your house much
>>> less helping himself to your belongings or
>>> continued good health.
>>> g
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Joe Campbell
>>> <philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is what listening to pop music can do
>>> to you!
>>>
>>> Paul: If he's in your house, then the gun
>>> was not a deterrent.
>>>
>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 6:12 AM, Sunil
>>> Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But not in a judgmental way. I'm too busy
>>>> singing to put anybody down.
>>>>
>>>> sr
>>>>
>>>> From: jampot at roadrunner.com
>>>> <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>
>>>> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>>> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>>> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 06:02:11 -0800
>>>>
>>>> Now you're just monkeeing around.
>>>> g
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Sunil Ramalingam
>>>> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:07 PM
>>>> *Cc:* vision 2020
>>>> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>>>
>>>> The premise of your post was that he was
>>>> breaking into homes when people were there.
>>>> Now you're inventing his motive to kill
>>>> you. No, if he saw your face, he'd be a
>>>> believer, not a killer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sunil
>>>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:56:57 -0800
>>>> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>>>> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>>> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It didn't say he was. If he did, though,
>>>> I'd want to be able to protect myself if he
>>>> ran across me in a home he thought was
>>>> empty and he got it through his head that I
>>>> had to die because I'd seen his face. Or
>>>> maybe he's desperate, and now he's willing
>>>> to try hitting a house that is occupied but
>>>> looks like he could rob it regardless.
>>>>
>>>> It's a tool of preparedness. I'd rather not
>>>> assume that he's harmless if he's breaking
>>>> into houses and robbing them. If my
>>>> assumption is wrong, I could die. I'd
>>>> rather not throw away my chance at survival
>>>> because "OMG! Guns are bad!"
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't mean, by the way, that I'd just
>>>> shoot this guy for breaking into my house.
>>>> But a loaded weapon is a good deterrent,
>>>> and if it turns out my life is at stake,
>>>> I'd rather have a gun than a shoe I could
>>>> throw at him, or whatever I happened to
>>>> have at hand.
>>>>
>>>> This isn't rocket science. Be prepared.
>>>> It's the good old Boy Scout motto. I also
>>>> have a smoke detector and a fire extinguisher.
>>>>
>>>> Don't let the "guns are killing our kids!"
>>>> narrative drive your views.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> On 02/19/2013 10:43 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Paul,
>>>>
>>>> Where does it say he's breaking into
>>>> homes when people are in? I had a lot
>>>> of burglary cases, and my mistakenly
>>>> charged clients were usually alleged to
>>>> have entered homes when no one was
>>>> there. Lots easier to leave with stuff
>>>> that way, said the authorities.
>>>>
>>>> Sunil
>>>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:02:25 -0800
>>>> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>>>> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: thansen at moscow.com
>>>> <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>
>>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's paranoid about locking up when
>>>> you're out and being ready to defend
>>>> yourself when you're at home when there
>>>> is a known burglar in the area? Being
>>>> prepared is not the same thing as being
>>>> paranoid. If someone is crazy enough
>>>> to break into your home while you are
>>>> there, you can go ahead and classify
>>>> that as a situation fraught with
>>>> danger, in which case having some means
>>>> to protect yourself might be called
>>>> for. There are plenty of reasonable
>>>> scenarios where a would-be burglar
>>>> happens upon a member of the household
>>>> when he thought the place was empty
>>>> that could end up very badly for the
>>>> person he stumbled upon. If the
>>>> burglar knew you were at home and
>>>> invaded the home anyway, then you've
>>>> definitely got a problem if you are
>>>> happily unarmed.
>>>>
>>>> Better to have that gun when you need
>>>> it than not. If guns frighten you,
>>>> which I find hard to believe because of
>>>> your military background, then at least
>>>> pick up a good aluminum baseball bat.
>>>>
>>>> Do you think I'm paranoid because I
>>>> keep a set of jumper cables in my trunk
>>>> in case my battery dies and I need a
>>>> jump from a kind stranger? Are you one
>>>> of those people that joyously flit from
>>>> situation to situation relying on the
>>>> gods to keep you out of trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> On 02/19/2013 01:18 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <ATT00001>
>>>>
>>>> Paranoia . . . self-destroya.
>>>>
>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>>>
>>>> "Moscow Cares"
>>>> http://www.moscowcares.com/
>>>> Tom "Proud to be a Filthy Liberal
>>>> Scum" Hansen
>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>
>>>> "There's room at the top they are
>>>> telling you still
>>>> But first you must learn how to
>>>> smile as you kill
>>>> If you want to be like the folks on
>>>> the hill."
>>>>
>>>> - John Lennon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of thePalouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net/
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First
>>>> Step Internet, serving the communities
>>>> of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net/
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of thePalouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net/
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step
>>>> Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse
>>>> since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net/
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step
>>>> Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse
>>>> since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net/
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>
>>> =======================================================
>>> List services made available by First Step
>>> Internet,
>>> serving the communities of the Palouse
>>> since 1994.
>>> http://www.fsr.net/
>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> =======================================================
>>>
>>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net/
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>> <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net/
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net/
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> =======================================================
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net/
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net/
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net/
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net/
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> =======================================================
>
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20130221/f703aed4/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list