[Vision2020] Institute for Public Accuracy: "Media Miss the Forest for the Burning Trees"
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Thu Jul 5 14:29:09 PDT 2012
I'm sure climate scientists are well aware of the feedback issues, and many of the other things I've posted. You might start to wonder why you're hearing this from me, though.
Paul
________________________________
From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>; Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Institute for Public Accuracy: "Media Miss the Forest for the Burning Trees"
Paul,
You claim to know something no other group of scientists do.
If so, then write your hypothesis. Present proof to the world scientific community they are wrong and you are right. Then people will believe you regardless of your credentials.
It is illogical and irrational for anyone to believe anyone when the facts and evidence presented by professionals goes against what they are claiming and they present no facts or evidence.
This set standard of proof is true for everybody, regarding every science and every profession.
Donovan J. Arnold
From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
To: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Institute for Public Accuracy: "Media Miss the Forest for the Burning Trees"
So go ask your climate scientist buddies what the current state of the science is on the feedback question. Will the feedbacks be positive or negative? What are the specific feedbacks, and how do they interact? How will that impact us? If I'm incapable of reading and analyzing information because I haven't been canonized with a climate science degree, then get the official, blessed answer from them. Be sure they provide references in case some heretic wants to think for him or herself and double check them on it.
It's not like learning the basics of climate science requires you to devote twenty years of your life to live in a monastery or something. You can find lots of published papers online, and can Google unfamiliar terms. There are lots of sites that strive to inform their readers about the science behind climate change, apparently ignorant of the idea that it's all a waste of time. Lots of information to learn, sure. But you won't get there if you don't start somewhere.
But if you want to stick with the idea that whatever I say can be discarded without reading because I am not properly credentialed, well, you know where the delete button is.
Paul
From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Cc: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>; Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Institute for Public Accuracy: "Media Miss the Forest for the Burning Trees"
I'm not
asking you to bow to anything, Paul. I think your posts are
epistemically irresponsible and I'm going to say so every time you put
one up. That is all that is going on.
Maybe you don't think that the evidence supports the views that the
majority of SCIENTISTS hold. But you are NOT a scientist and one would
have to be crazy or biased to take your opinions over theirs.
You want me to listen to you? Gain some actual expertise in the matter
and convince other scientists that what you say is correct. If the
only ones listening to you are Gary and Roger, that is not enough of a
reason for me to listen to you. And folks should know that.
So keep posting and so will I! God bless freedom of speech! Joe
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Fine, then. I officially bow to the Climate Scientists Priesthood. May
> they live long and prosper.
>
> I still don't see any evidence they have the feedback thing worked out,
> though.
>
> Paul
>
> ________________________________
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>; Moscow Vision 2020
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 11:18 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Institute for Public Accuracy: "Media Miss the
> Forest for the Burning Trees"
>
> You are just ignoring the points I made. You say that "you've looked
> into it" but I don't see how you could have looked into the matter
> more than the 100s of folks I've met, who are actual working
> scientists, and who think that folks like you don't know what they are
> talking about. Joe
>
> On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> Just a quick response, since my time is currently limited.
>>
>> Whether the gods
gave us our brains or we just came by them naturally, we
>> shouldn't be afraid to use them. The difference between the fields of
>> climate science and lung cancer research FOR ME, is that I have looked
>> into
>> climate science and haven't taken the time to look into the tobacco/lung
>> disease connection yet. I don't smoke, I have zero interest in it, and
>> the
>> connection doesn't surprise me, so it's way down the list of items that I
>> would like to look into.
>>
>> I look into things all the time, either because they are interesting on
>> their own or because they affect me personally and I want to be informed
>> about them. For example, quite a few years ago I sat down with Einstein's
>> book "Relativity: The Special and General Theory" (which can be found
>> online
>> here: http://www.bartleby.com/173/) and laboriously worked my way through
>> mind experiments involving rigid rods and trains moving past stationary
>> platforms. It was slow going, but I got there. I was hoping that I'd see
>> something that the great Einstein overlooked. Not surprisingly, I didn't.
>> What I didn't find was a ton of reasons to be skeptical about the theory
>> to
>> begin with. The concepts are actually pretty easy, they just take some
>> work
>> to reorient yourself to think of the consequences. I've also done the
>> same
>> thing to a lesser degree with Big Bang Theory. When I decided to do this
>> with climate science, I found a science in it's infancy that is generally
>> making progress in lots of areas but is handicapped by it's own
political
>> relevance.
>>
>> So, that's the difference between smoking and climate science, at least
>> for
>> me. One I've looked into and found it wanting, the other I take as simple
>> faith purely because it sounds plausible and because I could really give a
>> crap about it. Maybe someday I'll be motivated enough to examine the
>> claims
>> made by scientists with regards to the tobacco/lung disease link. If I
>> did
>> so, I'd drop my preconceptions and come into it fresh. For all I know,
>> it's
>> another case where it's politically convenient to make the connection but
>> isn't really that clear-cut.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>> To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>; Moscow Vision 2020
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2012 8:57 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Institute for Public Accuracy: "Media Miss the
>> Forest for the Burning Trees"
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> Thanks for helping me to make my case!
>>
>> The point is that you DON'T
believe that smoking causes lung cancer on
>> the basis of scientific evidence that you understand and evaluate,
>> because you are not a scientist. You believe it because it is "common
>> sense" (which is irrelevant, for it merely boils down to the fact that
>> it seems to you to be true) and because the experts tell you it is
>> true. You still haven't shown a difference between the case of smoking
>> and human carbon consumption. Let's look more closely at some of the
>> BAD arguments you give below for the supposed difference.
>>
>> Two clarifications first. My point was that unless you are an actual
>> scientist, it is almost impossible to make judgments about scientific
>> claims on evidence alone. In most cases, understanding the evidence
>> would require a high level of expertise. This is why scientific
>> beliefs should be based
on testimony, the testimony of experts in the
>> field. My general claim was that there is NO basis to dismiss one set
>> of scientists (climate scientists, say) yet not dismiss others as
>> well. In my previous post, I happened to mention scientists who
>> specialize in lung cancer research but below I mention others since
>> they are helpful in showing flaws in your reasoning.
>>
>> Also, you might wonder how I'm qualified to speak about such matters,
>> given that I'm not a climate scientist either. But I'm not making any
>> claims about the climate. I just trust what the climate scientists
>> tell me for reasons given. I'm making claims about your arguments and
>> when it comes to judgments about the strengths and weaknesses of
>> arguments -- the area of logic and the broader area of epistemology --
>> there is NO ONE living on the Palouse who is more qualified than I am
>> (although there are a few people who are as qualified).
>>
>> The points in (1) are irrelevant and were addressed above. In the
>> 1950s smoking seemed to be a healthy activity and was promoted as
>> such. Common sense turned out to be wrong. Common sense is never a
>> reason for holding scientific beliefs.
>>
>> Wrt (2), I'd be willing to bet that there are climate scientists
>> working on these very questions. In any event, I'm not sure what
>> evidence you have to say otherwise. I tend to leave it to scientists
>> to determine what kinds of studies they should or shouldn't be
>> concerned with in order to support their claims. Since you are not a
>> scientist, these points are meaningless.
>>
>> For
point (3), it is true that the climate is complex. But the
>> universe is even MORE complex. To the extent that this gives you a
>> reason to dismiss climate science it should give you EVEN MORE reason
>> to dismiss all of physics for both the micro-level of the universe and
>> the macro-level of the universe are FAR MORE complex than the earth's
>> climate. This is just a general skeptical argument that applies to
>> almost ANY area of science. Why accept it wrt climate science but not,
>> say, cosmology? Why believe anything that Stephen Hawking says, for
>> instance? Do you know how much MORE complicated the whole frickin'
>> universe is when compared with the earth's climate? This is an absurd,
>> BAD, and irresponsible argument.
>>
>> I've responded to arguments
like those in (4) and (5) before but it
>> hasn't seemed to sink in yet. Whether or not a scientist has an agenda
>> is IRRELEVANT. What matters is the EVIDENCE he or she has in support
>> of the claims made. Suppose you find out that 99% of scientists who
>> study the links between smoking and lung cancer went into the field
>> for emotional and irrational reasons -- suppose, say, that members of
>> their family died of lung cancer. That would be irrelevant and
>> shouldn't cause you to dismiss their findings. ALL that is relevant is
>> the epistemological quality of the evidence, which can be judged in
>> objective ways.
>>
>> If your argument were sound, it should give people reason to dismiss
>> EVERYTHING you say because you clearly have an agenda. You can't tell
>> me that your concern with the issue of global warming is
independent
>> of your political views or your personal habits, that it is solely
>> motivated by the desire for objective truth and nothing more. This
>> very argument undermines everything you say on Vision 2020 since all
>> of it is in keeping with your own political viewpoints, or "agenda."
>> But people shouldn't dismiss your views merely because you happen to
>> be interested in politics. They should judge your views on the basis
>> of the evidence you provide in support of the claims that you make.
>> They shouldn't make sweeping generalizations about your claims either;
>> they should evaluate each argument individually.
>>
>> If your argument were sound, we should dismiss ALL sciences related to
>> human heath, since they are all motivated by the subjective desire to
>> help human beings extend their lives and improve the quality
of their
>> lives. Likely anyone working in the area of cancer research is
>> motivated in part by the selfish desire to become THE person that
>> finds the cure for cancer. That is irrelevant. This is another general
>> skeptical argument that (if sound) should cause you to dismiss much
>> more than climate science.
>>
>> ALL scientific claims should be judged by the merits of the evidence
>> given. Personal facts about the scientists are ALWAYS IRRELEVANT.
>> People tend to choose their vocations for personal reasons, not
>> because of a desire to seek objective truth. Scientists are no
>> different in this regard.
>>
>> Best, Joe
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On 07/03/2012 05:42 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So, Paul, why believe that smoking causes lung disease if you don't
>>>> believe that human carbon consumption has an impact on global warming?
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>> First, I'm not saying that carbon consumption is not having an impact on
>>> global warming. I'm saying that the size of the impacts compared to the
>>> more-or-less unknown natural factors is unknown and that the feedbacks
>>> from
>>> warming in general are unknown, among other things.
>>>
>>> There are plenty of reasons, both scientific and not, that make me
>>> skeptical
>>> of
global warming. Although everyone will assume I'm just grasping at
>>> straws because of my deep-seated urge to deny everything (probably has to
>>> do
>>> with my relationship with my mother), I humbly present a smattering of
>>> them
>>> for your enjoyment:
>>>
>>> 1. On the face of it, the idea is extraordinary. Humans, even with our
>>> vaunted civilization, are small potatoes compared to the forces of
>>> nature.
>>> The only reason our carbon footprint even makes a dent compared to
>>> natural
>>> forces has to do with the small amount of CO2 in our atmosphere. We've
>>> had
>>> far less of an impact on the water cycle, for example, or with oxygen
>>> levels. Not saying that it isn't possible, but there is automatically a
>>>
bar
>>> that has to be gotten over which smoking causing lung disease doesn't
>>> have.
>>> It should be common sense that inhaling smoke multiple times a day for
>>> years
>>> can have a deleterious effect on the lungs, even without bringing in
>>> carcinogens.
>>>
>>> 2. There are some obvious questions that aren't being answered because
>>> of
>>> the focus on human impacts. For example, what caused the earth to heat
>>> up
>>> immediately following the Little Ice Age? If we do not know, how can we
>>> say
>>> with any confidence that human-induced climate change is to blame instead
>>> of
>>> the same natural processes still at work? What causes an ice age to
>>> start,
>>> and what brings us out of
one?
>>>
>>> 3. The climate is complex, with multiple feedbacks of unknown strength
>>> and
>>> unknown feedbacks of unknown strength. The sign of the combination of
>>> feedbacks isn't even known. Climate models cannot be that accurate,
>>> given
>>> the above, yet they are seen as gospel. Even when they make different
>>> assumptions and model things different ways. As long as they project a
>>> warmer future, they are added to the model average and used as proof that
>>> global warming will kill babies and cause frogs to rain from the sky.
>>>
>>> I imagine that the mechanisms for lung disease from tobacco are
>>> relatively
>>> straight
forward.
>>>
>>> 4. Some of the major players in the spotlight on the side of global
>>> warming
>>> are environmental activists with an agenda, as opposed to being objective
>>> scientists just following the data. For example, Timothy Wirth (Senator
>>> from Colorado and leader of the negotiating team for the Kyoto treaty)
>>> held
>>> a hearing on global warming at the capital. He called the Weather Bureau
>>> to
>>> find out what day of the year was usually the hottest in DC, and
>>> scheduled
>>> the hearing for that date. His team then went in the night before the
>>> hearing and opened all the windows in the room in which the hearing was
>>> to
>>> be held, causing the air conditioning to fail to keep up with
the heat.
>>> All
>>> so that it could be hot and muggy when James Hansen gave his spiel about
>>> the
>>> dangers of global warming.
>>>
>>>
>>> (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hotpolitics/interviews/wirth.html)
>>>
>>> The anti-tobacco campaigns, with all their sheer propaganda, do seem to
>>> be
>>> run by political activists, but that may be coincidental.
>>>
>>> 5. Major climate scientists also appear to have political agendas.
>>> Michael
>>> Mann and his "hockey stick" come to mind, trying to erase the Medieval
>>> Warm
>>> Period and the Little Ice Age, using dubious statistics, all so they
>>>
could
>>> show that current warming was "unprecedented". All this from a few
>>> bristlecone pine trees.
>>>
>>> I haven't heard of any of these kinds of shenanigans from scientists
>>> studying the link between tobacco use and lung diseases, probably because
>>> the links were relatively straight forward. Not so much the case with
>>> global warming / global climate change / global climate disruption.
>>>
>>> There are more, but that gives you the gist of it. But hey, it's just me
>>> being contrarian, right? So please, move along. Nothing to see here.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>>
>
>
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