[Vision2020] Borden and Universal Health Care Use the Same Business Model

Thu Jan 19 21:05:09 PST 2012

Wow.     And here I was just answering your post where you were saying
you weren't throwing rocks.

Most of your questions are loaded to the point beyond answering in the
context of "honest debate".  

Perhaps I used the term "robbery" a little too loosely.  I loathe the
simplistic approach of just disproportionally taking tax dollars from
different classes of income.   A government program that supports itself
by putting an "additional tax" on the rich?  Yes, I would see this as a
form of one class of citizen "robbing" a different class of citizen.
If taxation is FAIR, then my impression of "robbery" goes away, as
everyone (whether they individually agree or not) had paid for the
answer with the same %.   

I wasn't aware that most charities were church run.   The two charities
I donate to every year certainly aren't (which admittedly have nothing
to do with health care).    Either you are limiting yourself in your
scope/vision, exaggerating your claim, or there's some "treasure trove"
of faith-based charities that you are aware of that I'm not.

I don't have an answer for your specific examples... nor am I going to
try.  The easiest way to buck a "bigger picture view" is to cite
specific examples that go against the trend.   The ones you have listed
are certainly heart-felt and extreme... but they don't change my view
that I should be FORCED to sacrifice in order to accommodate.

That easily paints me as cold and heartless... but that's the flip side
of the coin for "freedom".  

There's a great quote out there (sadly I don't know who said it... if
anyone knows please tell me)... It goes something like:  "If you ask me
for my dollar, I'll probably give it to you... but if you just take it,
I'll fight you for it".

I like to think I'm on the short list of folks to call when any of my
friends/family requires assistance.  In the past twenty years, I've
temporarily housed, I've loaned money (which may or may not have been
the wiser of my choices), I've transported, babysat, assisted my parents
with their home-hospice care for my grandparents, and stopped to help
strangers broken down on the side of the road... done a whole HOST of
other things I probably can't remember.... both asked of me and not
asked of me.  

"Great".  You say as your eyes roll.  "He thinks he's a saint because he
helped some lady get a cat out of a tree".  

No.  Not at all.

I like to think my character is one where I would do what I could when
need presents itself.  It doesn't mean that I sacrifice my own safety,
family, or security in the process... and it doesn't mean that I believe
anyone should be forced into doing the same.  

I fully agree the cost of health care has been pushed well above what is
generally affordable.  But just because I believe government
intervention is not the answer, and profess personal responsibility and
personal choice, it does not make me whatever monster you want to
believe I am.

For someone who just got done writing about how you don't pretend to
know me, you sure make a TON of bad assumptions to fill in the gaps.

Jay

"I asked a question a couple of weeks ago regarding the Genesis account
of Joseph's gathering of the nation's wheat crop for redistribution
during the famine that was about to hit Egypt.  Was he "robbing" the
wheat-growing Egyptians?"

"In going to war, illegally, illogically, and immorally, against Iraq in
2002, did George W. Bush "rob" me of those of my tax dollars that
supported his bloodthirsty neoconservatism?"

Is the abject failure of the War on Drugs "robbing" me of more of those
tax dollars?  Is it of any concern to you that where I'm being "robbed"
simply of money, young servicemen, Iraqis, and the minority victims of
the War on Drugs have been eternally robbed of life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness?  

In "robbing" you of taxpayer support for other people's healthcare, do
you take any comfort in knowing that your money would go to the saving,
maintenance, and prolonging of people's lives?  Or is it all the same to
you -- it's your money, so it's "robbery" regardless of any positive
effect it may have on society?

Also, please tell me what local congregation -- most charities are,
after all, church-run -- you know of who could afford to provide the
lifesaving cancer treatments needed back in 2007-2009 for my dear friend
Shannon.  Let me know what charity you know of that can house the widow
and children of the guy I knew who dropped dead of an aortic aneurism
largely brought on, the doctors said, by his working 70-hr. weeks to
support them.  I'd also be eager to hear of a place where I can give my
tithes and offerings, which most Christians believe should go to my
church, or at least to parachurch ministries, that can take on the daily
dialysis cost for an elderly congregant.  Oh, and what about those who
don't go to a church?  Might we just assume that they're reprobate and
are going to hell anyway, so why, as one Calvinist pastor said, try to
"out-love" God by caring for them?

In short, let me know where you expect your poor, uninsured, chronically
or acutely ill, marginalized, homeless, laid-off, hungry, bereaved
neighbors to go.  I try to do what I can, but you must know something I
don't, and I obviously need to re-focus my efforts.  

Oh, this time, Jay, in that last paragraph, I am being sarcastic.  The
blithe insouciance of your "go to a charity, go to a volunteer, there
are repercussions to being irresponsible" comment requires it, I
suppose, since logic can't even begin to address the contempt with which
you seem to hold the suffering, the poor, and the needy.  I thank God
for you, though, that your mother and her uterus were on THIS side of
the border, though, and I imagine the privileges just began there . . . 

Mercy.

Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

________________________________

Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Borden and Universal Health Care Use the Same
Business Model
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:55:04 -0800
From: jborden at datawedge.com
To: thansen at moscow.com
CC: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; moscowcares at moscow.com;
kjajmix1 at msn.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

Then I first look towards charity and volunteer organizations before I
start the process of vilifying and robbing others for a solution.

Jay

From: Tom Hansen [mailto:thansen at moscow.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 12:26 PM
To: Jay Borden
Cc: Donovan Arnold; Moscow Cares; keely emerinemix;
<vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Borden and Universal Health Care Use the Same
Business Model

And if the individual were poverty-stricken and unable to pay for
anything . . . .?

Seeya later, Moscow.

Tom Hansen

Post Falls, Idaho

"If not us, who?

If not now, when?"

- Unknown

On Jan 19, 2012, at 12:16 PM, "Jay Borden"  > wrote:

	Your question seems genuine, so I'll answer it as best I can.

	Neither.   Your two choices represent two extremes that I can't
support in either direction.

	I neither support a government run health care system, nor do I
support a system where zero assistance is offered to those who TRULY
need it.  

	But if I were asked to choose one direction to lean, I would
lean much more towards individual choice and responsibility (which
INCLUDE repercussions), as opposed to a system of "don't worry, the
government leaves no patient left behind" type of system.

	Jay

	From: Tom Hansen [mailto:thansen at moscow.com] 
	Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:50 AM
	To: Jay Borden
	Cc: Donovan Arnold; Moscow Cares; keely emerinemix;
vision2020 at moscow.com
	Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Borden and Universal Health Care Use
the Same Business Model

	Simple question, Mr. Borden . . .

	Do you believe that people should be fiscally responsible
(completely) for their health care?  Or do you believe in a socialized
(pronounced "government") health care program (i.e. Medicare, Medicaid,
etc.), where everybody in a tax bracket (everybody above the poverty
level) should contribute?

	Seeya later, Moscow.

	Tom Hansen

	Post Falls, Idaho

	"If not us, who?

	If not now, when?"

	- Unknown

	On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:47 AM, "Jay Borden"
<jborden at datawedge.com> wrote:

		I appreciate the kudos... but I'm not trying to pat
myself on the back, only to demonstrate my view.   

		(And you've been more than kind in your responses...
thank you).

		The missing piece in your analogy (of my analogy) is
that I didn't turn around and offer free widgets to everyone, and then
turn around and only bill the people that can afford it.   On the
contrary, when they want a new widget, they'll have to pay for it.  And
because they suddenly had to pay for it, they were much more
scrutinizing of how the widget was used.  

		You're trying to connect the dots of my making customers
responsible for their own widgets to Universal healthcare just
"spreading the cost" around and tossing widgets into the street for
anyone to consume.

		(Yes, this analogy is REALLY breaking down...)

		Costco's model works because they tend to both BUY and
SELL their inventory in BULK.  They are actually intended/marketed such
that they sell to OTHER businesses (B2B), but if you're an end-customer
and want to purchase pianos in a 3-pack, that's fine too.  (Yes, I know,
you can get many merchandise items individually... but generally
speaking most of their products are larger in both VOLUME and
QUANTITY... I think I bought peanut butter from Costo 3 years ago and
haven't had to go back since...)

		If you link that to Universal Health Care and point to
savings.... well I don't know if I would purchase a dozen ER visits at a
time, or choose the flu shot with "50% more!"

		If you want to make a link to another enterprise and
point to savings, might I suggest Walmart.

		Walmart (by several other people's description) is the
"single choice" threat moving into any territory.   Walmart succeeds
because they undercut competition (private practices) by offering lower
prices.  They engage in supplier-specific contracts with individual
suppliers to offer products that no one else can touch
(semi-price-fixing)... and to sell their products ONLY in their store.

		On the flip side, because of Walmart, other retailers
(doctors) can't afford to stay in business.  (How many articles have I
read where "someone used to own the local greenhouse/nursery, but now
they just work at the Lawn & Garden at the local Walmart?")

		The end result is a place that people hate to go, but
have no other real alternative (since the other choices have been
destroyed), purchasing inferior products/services that they can't
stand...

		Now... today, people are responsible for paying their
own bills at Walmart.  That keeps the purchasing in check (minus the
Walmart shop-a-holics).

		To press the analogy further,  imagine if Walmart
suddenly said "all you can take buffet... pay one fee and take whatever
you can carry off the shelves".  

		People would start to grab two or three or four of
items, even though they wouldn't need them, because the cost difference
is zero.  As a result, Walmart would have to RAISE prices to keep up
with the "flat-fee" demand... (and at this point you head on down the
slippery slope of starting to charge ONLY the more wealthy folks
shopping at Walmart, yada yada yada...)

		This is an obvious deadlock debate... I see widgets, you
see universal health care, I see Walmart, you see Costco.   I have ZERO
argument with anyone who says that the current health care system needs
alterations... but I can see ZERO benefit in having the same folks that
run the DMV and the IRS suddenly managing my health insurance... I see
only disaster.

		Jay

		From: Donovan Arnold
[mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
		Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:30 AM
		To: Jay Borden; Moscow Cares; keely emerinemix
		Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
		Subject: Borden and Universal Health Care Use the Same
Business Model

		Jay,

		I think it is great that you were able to turn a failing
business. Not many people have that gift. I think your example does
relate directly to health care, but in a way that gives credence to
Universal Health Care and highlights problems with our current system of
care.

		What you did to the failing widgets company is exactly
what Universal Health Care does all over the world. Our health care
system is like a business that is going broke, with unsatisfied
customers because the way it is doing business. What kind of business
lasts with 13% increases in costs annually and just keeps passing the
cost to the customers? That didn't work for your predecessor, and it
isn't working for health care either. 

		The steps you took, are the ones Universal Health Care
makes. First, you lowered costs of the widget so everyone that needed
one could afford it. Universal Health Care does it the same way. It is
the bulk of sales, not the high price per unit that makes it work
financially, as you well know. The Costco model works better than the
local jewelry model for high demand products and services. 

		Second, you took steps to reduce costly replacements by
prevention through education. Universal Health Care also works on this
business model. By giving people the access to education on health and
behavior and proper use of medications and treatments, the cost of
repairs are greatly reduced because the damage never occurs in the first
place. 

		Finally, Universal Health Care works on the business
principles you adopted of a fair contract that holds both parties
accountable. Both you and Universal Health Care pay for about 100% of
damage that is not the fault of the client. However, if the person is
neglectful or uses it not as intended they are not completely covered,
but you don't make the costs of fixing the problem beyond their ability
to pay. 

		I really don't see the difference between what you did
with a widgets company and what Universal Health Care does for health
care. Jay, I don't see why the taxpayers should have to use the broken
business model you had to fix than the proper working one you have now.
Do you? 

		Donovan Arnold

		From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
		To: Moscow Cares <moscowcares at moscow.com>; keely
emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> 
		Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
		Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 4:30 PM
		Subject: Re: [Vision2020] More Proof Preventative Health
Care Saves

		Yes, that's the decision that the previous business
owner made.    (Whose name didn't sound anything like "Bay Jorden").  

		While he thought he was doing good, he was ruining his
company (and thus his ability to continue servicing his customers with
the product).

		You can ridicule the specifics all you want, the only
relevance that translates to my point is one of human nature.  I believe
(and I have experienced the trend) that people care less when they are
not directly tied to finances.

		Is there anyone on this list that rents out residential
property?  Would you say that people take more care of the
apartment/house when a security deposit is on the line?  Or would you
say that people generally take care of the facilities regardless?

		Jay

		From: Moscow Cares [mailto:moscowcares at moscow.com] 
		Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 1:26 PM
		To: keely emerinemix
		Cc: Jay Borden; vision2020 at moscow.com
		Subject: Re: [Vision2020] More Proof Preventative Health
Care Saves

		According to Jay Borden:

		"Turns out the problem had nothing to do with design...
it was customers not bothering to read or learn anything about proper
use of the widgets, or trying to use the widgets for a completely
different purpose altogether. 

		Tack on a free replacement guarantee, and customers
didn't bother to self-educate... they just let the company "fix the
problem" with the warranty."

		So, what you are telling us, Mr. Borden, is . . .

		Although the customers clearly violated a product's
warranty by " . . . trying to use the widgets for a completely different
purpose altogether . . . ", the company honored the warranty and
replaced the product.

		That's right up there with . . .

		John Smith was going into the widget business.  He would
go to the widget manufacturer, load up his truck with widgets (at $10
each), take them back to his store, and sell them at $9 each.  This went
on for a couple months.  He was wondering why he was losing money on
what he considered to be a sound business venture.  He sought advice on
what he should do from a business advisor; let's call him Bay Jorden.
Bay Jorden, after weeks of meticulous research into John Smith's
business practices, came up with what he considered a sure-win solution.
He suggested to John Smith that what he needs is a . . . larger truck.

		Sidebar to Mr. Borden:  Do you know if this guy is
selling cars?  I have a friend that can certainly use a new car . . .
every year.

		Seeya later, Moscow.

		Tom Hansen

		Post Falls, Idaho

		"If not us, who?

		If not now, when?"

		- Unknown

		On Jan 18, 2012, at 12:57 PM, keely emerinemix
<kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

			Turns out the problem had nothing to do with
design... it was customers not bothering to read or learn anything about
proper use of the widgets, or trying to use the widgets for a completely
different purpose altogether.  

			Tack on a free replacement guarantee, and
customers didn't bother to self-educate... they just let the company
"fix the problem" with the warranty.

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