[Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .

Mon Dec 31 15:41:29 PST 2012

<Please 
support your claim. If "they" -- meaning progressives, liberals, or 
Intoleristas -- "resort quickly to the instruments of harassment and 
coercion" you must have plenty of cases to back up your claim, enough to
 support the claim that "they" are doing, as opposed to a select few. 
Please give those examples and make sure you have enough of them to 
support this very general, over-the-top claim.>
Joe - there were just two recent examples of this. 1) Tom posted a twitter link charging it as inappropriate and that the poster is 'unethical'.  I'd say that borders on harassment in trying to drum up any more hatred toward the real Dale, 2) Tom trumped up a charge that a city council member was not a resident of Moscow.  There were several posts on the viz that this would disqualify this city council member from continuing his term.  I'd say this a threat of coercion - by some on the viz - to run this member off the council, 3) going back a few years, Christ Church was hosting an event at the UI and when members of this viz found out he would be serving tradition communion, they went to the UI to successfully block this.  It's not that far fetched to see how Christ Church could view this as both 'harassment and coercion', 4) Also a few years ago, there was fervent discussion on the viz about Christ Church claiming 501c3 non-profit tax exempt status in a building where they were running for profit businesses.  There was some investigation into this which if I recall resulted in a split decisions where the activities qualifying as tax exempt remained so, and the other activities that did not were not allowed to be tax exempt.  Again, it's not a stretch for Doug and his flock to consider this both 'harassment and coercion', 5) Someone posted an unfounded rumor on this viz to the effect 'Is is true that the coffee shop (might have been Bucer's) refused to serve a gay couple?'.  There was a flurry of posts about this.  If this wasn't harassment, it certainly gave the coffee shop a bad name. 6) There was a list being circulated with names & businesses of Christ Church members urging a boycott of these businesses.  Personally, I have mixed feelings about this one as I'd not want a single penny of mine going into Doug Wilson's coffers and yet at the same time I think it's unjust to punish a whole congregation just because of their rogue pastor.  I'm sure I could find more examples.

<And of course "No conservative has ever
      told [you, Paul] that [you] shouldn't make posts of a certain type." Why should they? You are there mouthpiece.>
I'll let Paul chime in on this, but I think he was referring to his posts that are more moderate and that conservatives don't tell him not to make those posts.

<The
 two posts are ironic because I've posted a slew of questions about gun 
control over the last few weeks, asking some straightforward questions 
and trying to engage in thoughtful discussion. None of the questions 
received any serious answers. There were some sarcastic posts by Paul 
but no serious attempt to engage in discussion.>
I think for the most part, their has been OK discussion on this.  I don't recall any sarcastic posts by Paul, but there have been a lot of posts.  The one positive take away on the gun control discussion is that the folks who presently enjoying their nearly unfettered gun rights are at least engaging in the discussion.  It's better than having them just walk away which they certainly could do.  I'd find it hard to believe that fun enthusiasts wouldn't be just as heartbroken as anyone else over the Sandy Hook massacre so I believe it's counter productive to demonize them or even the NRA - but that's just my opinion.  I'd like to see the discussion on gun control continue even though I think gun control is the wrong answer and there should be unified goal of 'reducing/eliminating gun violence' even though there are a wide variety of opinions on who has the right answer on this.

<I've refuted 
several arguments given by conservatives on this these
 issues but guess what? Conservatives keep using those bad arguments 
anyway, without attempting to respond to them. I can't count the times 
that Paul or Gary or others, for instance, have jumped from "let's talk about gun 
control" to "let's ban all firearms.">
Slippery slope to hyperbole comes into play in most discussions of where to draw the line (if any) on rights as can be seen on topics of gay marriage, abortion, etc.  I can't help you much on that one.  In most cases, moderation seems to be the key and maybe there is some middle ground that can be reached.

<I'm ready to talk and I can
 talk without insulting anyone. Can either of you? Is it even possible 
for Scott, Paul, or Gary to have a conversation without insulting 
someone, or making the kinds of unsupported general claims in these two 
posts? This is not an insult, it is a challenge.>
Yes.

-Scott

Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 13:53:42 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .
From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com
CC: ngier at uidaho.edu; moscowcares at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

Scott,

Can you give some specific examples? Or is it just enough to say "This 
is happening"? 

Wilson says "But they would rather not talk at 
all, and so they resort quite quickly to the instruments of harassment 
and coercion" to which Scott responds "This is happening." 

Please 
support your claim. If "they" -- meaning progressives, liberals, or 
Intoleristas -- "resort quickly to the instruments of harassment and 
coercion" you must have plenty of cases to back up your claim, enough to
 support the claim that "they" are doing, as opposed to a select few. 
Please give those examples and make sure you have enough of them to 
support this very general, over-the-top claim.

Or maybe Paul 
could provide evidence backing up this claim: "I would like to point out
      that it's the liberals on this list (or 'Intoleristas', if you
      prefer) that come across as the most dogmatic of the two main
      groups on this list (Intoleristas/liberals vs.
      conservatives/Christ Church members)." Come across as dogmatic to 
whom? And how many liberals come across as dogmatic? Why not name 10 
since there are enough, on your view to make such a general claim.

Paul
 also writes: "It was the
      Intoleristas that spent a lot of time and effort trying to
      convince me that boycotting businesses run by Christ Church
      members wasn't somehow intolerant of another religion." Please be 
sure to name the Intoleristas that "spent a lot of time and effort 
trying to convince" you to boycott Christ Church businesses? Be 
specific. Name enough of them to justify this slander of a whole group 
of people who happen to disagree with your views.

And of course "No conservative has ever
      told [you, Paul] that [you] shouldn't make posts of a certain type." Why should they? You are there mouthpiece.

The
 two posts are ironic because I've posted a slew of questions about gun 
control over the last few weeks, asking some straightforward questions 
and trying to engage in thoughtful discussion. None of the questions 
received any serious answers. There were some sarcastic posts by Paul 
but no serious attempt to engage in discussion. 

I've refuted 
several arguments given by conservatives on this these
 issues but guess what? Conservatives keep using those bad arguments 
anyway, without attempting to respond to them. I can't count the times 
that Paul or Gary or others, for instance, have jumped from "let's talk about gun 
control" to "let's ban all firearms."

I'm ready to talk and I can
 talk without insulting anyone. Can either of you? Is it even possible 
for Scott, Paul, or Gary to have a conversation without insulting 
someone, or making the kinds of unsupported general claims in these two 
posts? This is not an insult, it is a challenge.

Joe

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

It's got some substance Dr. Gier, you just need to cut through a lot of Doug's crap to see some of it:

<Everything goes great in this world of monochrome diversity until someone actually disagrees with them in their town>

This happened.

<They cannot handle disagreement and debate, and so to the extent that they have to talk at all they resort immediately to shrill invective.>
This is still happening and you can see it in the threads about 'gun control & the NRA' and 'global warming'.

<But they would rather not talk at all, and so they resort quite quickly to the instruments of harassment and coercion.>
This is happening.

<This is what has happened in every place in the world where they have had their way.>

This is true.  Might makes right.  We're lucky to live in a country where individual rights are protected against mob rule.

Intolerance cuts both ways.  Atheists can be just as intolerant and Fundy religious types.  Again, we're lucky to live in a country where individual rights are protected against mob rule.

As for your comment that <[Doug's] is a very narrow world indeed>, I agree with this as it's quite obvious.  Even so, Doug and his gullible flock deserve the exact same Constitutional rights and protections as everyone else even though they doesn't believe in the Constitution and do not believe in an egalitarian society.

<Happy New Year to all beings> I couldn't agree more. :)

-Scott

Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:45:59 -0800

From: ngier at uidaho.edu
To: moscowcares at moscow.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .

Hi Tom,

Thanks for posting this.  I had not read it either before now.  It is vintage Wilson--all rhetoric and sarcasm with little substance.  Much like his papers for my philosophy classes.

Some time ago a Kirker accused me of being a "Hindu-Lover," or something like that.  I had to inform him that I have supported four Indians for their studies:  one Christian who is now practicing psychotherapy in Australia, one Hindu for his art career, and a man and wife team (both devout Christians). My Hindu friends may have good reason to charge that I'm a "Christian-lover."

The husband just finished his Ph.D. at the University of Denver on the psychology of being a Christian untouchable. (I thought that they did not exist.) It was a brilliant analysis that gained him a dissertation prize of $2,000.  The wife just graduated summa cum laude from the School of Nursing and the University of Houston. 

I had a great weekend celebrating with them (Indian food at every meal) and a wonderful church service for Telegu-speaking Christians.  What a change when they switched from the stodgy English hymns to the ones in Telegu.  The tamborines and tabla came out, and I was able sing along because an IT guy projected the phonetic equivalents on a screen.  A weekend of total immersion in Indian culture that will never be forgotten.

Wilson praises that fact that many, but not as many as he implies, Latin Americans have converted to Pentecostal Christianity. (The highest percentage of them in coffee producing countries is 20 percent in Gautemala.) As he does with his right hand, he calls American Pentecostals less than Christian on the left.  (I can play the right and left hand game as well as he can.)  There is absolutely no healing, speaking in tongues, prophesying, and holy rolling at Christ Church.

The only foreign travel Doug Wilson did was on U.S. subs.  He doesn't have a clue what multiculturalism is or what seasoned travelers experience and learn in foreign lands.  His is a very narrow world indeed.

Happy New Year to all beings,

Nick

A society grows great when old men plant the seeds of trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

-Greek proverb

-----Original Message-----

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of Moscow Cares

Sent: Sun 12/30/2012 5:40 PM

To: Joe Campbell

Cc: viz

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .

---------------------------------------

Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares"

http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen

Moscow, Idaho

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