[Vision2020] Huh?

Sat Dec 22 11:54:22 PST 2012

Joe,

You may ultimately be right that 'it is a bad plan', but obviously not everyone has come to that same conclusion.  IMO it would be a good use of time to FULLY vet that proposal along with its advantages (if any) and disadvantages.  And if you know things that others don't and it's all crystal clear to you, then by all means shoot holes in the idea and preferably with cold hard verifiable facts and statistics.

<it might draw shooters since most of them are suicidal as well as homicidal>
Have the FBI profilers weigh in on this
Have mental health professionals weigh in on this

<The plan is economically unfeasible.>
Show the economic numbers in comparison to the price of unleashed mayhem
Put forth all ideas of funding prevention programs and similarly fully vet each of those ideas

Ultimately the plan either stands up to detailed scrutiny or can be demonstrably shown as unfeasible. unwise, etc.  The NRA says this is the answer and they have legions of supporters that take that as the gospel truth since this 'group think' seems to be a human attribute as can be seen almost everywhere in politics, religion, v2020, and so on.

Reasonable people can clearly see the truth when it's presented clearly, crisply, and - above all - accurately.  As for unreasonable people, there's no hope for them.

-Scott

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:11:19 -0800
From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
To: jampot at roadrunner.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?

Gary,

I'm happy to discuss this issue with you but that would mean we would have to discuss it. People keep mentioning specific criticisms about the NRA plan, referring you and others to articles and television interviews where the plan is discussed and dismissed, yet I don't see any real discussion of the plan from its supporters. I have not seen many responses to the criticisms other than "It might work." Like that was a reason for seriously the plan.

Let me be more specific. Here are two recent criticisms that have not yet been responded to. They are recent, so maybe that is the reason: one by Dan and one by Sunil. Sunil writes:

With regard to the NRA response: As my memory serves me, I think we've had shootouts at the following locations in the last 12-18 months:

-an elementary school;
-a shopping mall;
-a cinema;
-a Sikh temple;
-a political rally (that was >18 months ago, I think).
Should we have armed guards to protect us from each other at all of those locations?

This broadens the economic argument that I was giving. The plan is economically unfeasible. It isn't JUST that it is irresponsible -- a huge federal program in a time of economic crisis -- it is unfeasible.

Second, Dan notes that there are questions about the need for the plan. He writes: "there was significant security present when Gabrielle Giffords was shot." Why think the security will help? You are ready to launch a huge governmental program and it isn't even clear that it will do any good. Saundra noted that it might draw shooters since most of them are suicidal as well as homicidal.

So how do you or any others respond to these criticisms of the NRA plan? Let's discuss it. I want to get this over with because this is a bad plan and we are wasting a lot of time talking about it. Let's see why it is a bad plan and move on to a better plan.

Joe

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

I thought the point here was to discuss options. Do you 
imagine that being extra unpleasant lends an extra level of credence to your 
point of view? 

g

From: Saundra Lund 
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 8:18 PM
To: 'Gary Crabtree' ; 'viz' 

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?

It 
worked soo well at Columbine, didn’t it?

Confrontation 
by the armed officer  on campus & the exchange of fire drove one of the 
shooters back into the school to continue the slaughter.  There’s a 
stellar success!

Oops 
– but don’t confuse you with reality & facts, right?

Saundra

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Gary 
Crabtree
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:40 PM
To: Joe 
Campbell
Cc: viz
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 
Huh?

Training to become a cop in Idaho is 10 weeks making time not 
much of an issue. There are quite a few things covered in POST that a school 
guard would not need training in (pursuit driving, crime scene investigation, 
etc. ) further reducing the time needed to get qualified people in place. 
Utilizing vets who were MP's or members of security detachments along with 
retired police officers would be prime candidates for positions such as 
this.

All entry doors in a facility could be easily modified to 
emergency exit only except for one. This would make it so all visitors would be 
funneled through one door and past one armed guard.

I really don't see what make this idea so unworkable other 
then the fact that it doesn't jibe very well with the anti-gun 
agenda.

g

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
Scott,

There was an 
Assistant Director of the FBI on CNN today explaining why this cannot be 
implemented. Think of the training required before you release folks with guns 
onto school campuses. Then think of the number of schools, the number of doors 
to the school that would need to be guarded, the costs of training and hiring an 
education militia, and the number of qualified people available for those 
positions. This is a bad idea that does not stand a chance of getting passed. 
Forget about it and move on to some actual solution.

Best, 
Joe

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

Armed security is something that 
could be implemented, regulated, and enforced much more easily than gun control, 
gun bans, etc.  Armed security guards could be subjected to more rigorous 
background and mental heath checks plus mandatory training and licensing without 
having that pesky 2nd Amendment coming into the mix.  Somewhat similar to 
how we supposedly have air marshalls on some flights.  This might be one of 
the very few things that the Republicans would actually be OK to put on the 
fragile shoulders of tax paying individuals and businesses.

From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:36:59 
-0800
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] 
Huh?

"Before Congress reconvenes, before we engage in any lengthy 
debate over legislation, regulation or anything else, as soon as our kids return 
to school after the holiday break, we need to have every single school in 
America immediately deploy a protection program proven to work — and by that I 
mean armed security."

- Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President of the 
National Rifle Association (December 21, 2012)

http://tinyurl.com/cphq5lp

------------------------------------

Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares"

http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen

Moscow, Idaho

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=======================================================
 List 
services made available by First Step Internet,
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of the Palouse since 1994.

 http://www.fsr.net

mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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=======================================================
 List 
services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities 
of the Palouse since 1994.

 http://www.fsr.net

mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

=======================================================
 List 
services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities 
of the Palouse since 
1994.

http://www.fsr.net

mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

=======================================================

 List services made available by First Step Internet,

 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.

               http://www.fsr.net

          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com

=======================================================

=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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