[Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .

Tue Dec 18 15:05:52 PST 2012

While waiting for the "hysteria" to calm down, there could well be another mass shooting for which we will have to wait for the approved period of time to have a discussion.  The genie is already out of that bottle anyway.  And a discussion about mental health care in this country should not need to be prompted by mass shootings.  It is what it is.  Abysmal.  But let's not talk about it....

Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 13:02:24 -0800
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .

I'd also like to point out that all the mental health evaluations in the world needed to purchase a gun wouldn't have helped in this case because they weren't his guns to begin with.

Once the hysteria dies down, thinking up ways that we can help ensure that gun owners are more responsible with their guns at home when they are not being used would be a good idea.  If this guy's mother had kept her guns in a gun safe, he would have had a harder time getting to them.  They would have been safe from any children that might have been in the house as well, and probably would have made them less accident-prone as well.  The downside is that they are not immediately available if you hear a prowler in the house.

Paul

        From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
 To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>; Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm> 
Cc: 'vision 2020' <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
 Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 9:58 AM
 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .

I don't know about you, but I still see lots of dangerous idiots behind the wheel of cars regardless of all the regulations. 

Unfortunately, regardless of the timing or breathe of time allowed to resolve an issue, the nation usually chooses political and financial solutions for the wealthy, not realistic ones that resolve the real problems for the average person. 

My bet will be the average person will have to pay an extra $100 a year to go to the mental health professionals that are lobbying Congress to do bullshit mental health evaluations on all persons wanting to purchase certain particular automatic rifles that will not even be in production in a year.  

Its kind of like the physicals truck drivers are required to take before pulling an 80,000 load down the highway. You can tell just by looking at a 72 year old, chain smoking, 350lbs driver he could drop dead any minute (and they do, even while driving), but they get their DOT health clearance cards anyways, by simply paying the $100. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
To: Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm> 
Cc: 'vision 2020' <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .

On 12/17/2012 08:14 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:

Paul wrote:
“Anything we try to do in the meantime will almost certainly be an overreaction.”

Hogwash.  

Given the horrendous regularity of gun violence in this nation, how convenient for people to propose  that after violence isn’t the time to look at much needed and long overdue reforms.  That position guarantees reform will never happen because there will never be enough time between incidents.  And, frankly, I don’t know how those who’ve continued to advocate the “hands off” approach to meaningful reform dare to look in their damn mirrors anymore.
You are generally a calm, rational poster.  You mention a solution below (treating guns with the same types of laws we treat buying, selling, and operating cars) that has promise and should be discussed. 
 Watch over the next few days, on this list and on the national
 stage,  what solutions will be proposed.  I could be wrong, but I expect calm, rational solutions to be in the minority.

Fortunately, many people are far more capable of reasoned thinking in crisis than you want to give us credit for.  Besides, Paul, quite a few people, including a lot of really smart ones, have been discussing reasonable reform long before the SHES tragedy.  It’s not like the lunacy of gun violence in America is new.

Long before the SHES tragedy, I was beyond heartbroken by the nearly daily news coverage of this child or that being accidentally shot – and often killed -- by their parents’ weapons.  And, I was beyond weary of this person or that being killed by a stolen gun or a gun purchased through the gun show loophole that never should have been sold to an individual.  It’s crystal clear to me that far too many “gun enthusiasts” take advantage of their right to have whatever weapons their hearts’ desire without taking the responsibility that goes along with having those weapons, and anyone who argues that isn’t the case is a damn fool or a damn liar.  When products have hurt or killed far, far fewer than those who are victims or survivors of gun violence, we demand
 reform.  What on earth is
 wrong with people who choose to accept the shameless fear-mongering of the despicable NRA over good-ol’  American  common sense?!?
There is plenty of room for compromise here, as long as both sides of the conversation can actually happen.  In this media circus atmosphere, who dares stand up for the original intent of the Second Amendment, when "think of the children!" is all that we will hear?  I'm damn tired of people trying to manipulate me through fear.  In 2009 there were 11,493 firearm related homicides in the U.S.  In 2009 there were also 125,464 deaths due to acute myocardial infarction.  Are people going to get up in arms about the bad health of the average American the next time a celebrity dies of a heart attack with the same fervour that is happening right now over this massacre?  I
 doubt it, because this is a spectacle and it sells.  Thus, my earlier contention that it might be a good idea to wait until Lindsay Lohan goes to rehab again and the media spotlight turns on her before we can make any serious progress that has a hope of standing up in court.

Paul also wrote:
“For instance, if I said "the second amendment is about more than protecting kindergartners from being shot", I would currently be lambasted as an uncaring person who is dancing on the graves of 6 year-olds or something.”

Nonsense, and I’m getting pretty tired of your very frequent “everybody always picks on me” belly-aching.  Is this paranoia a part of your daily life, or do you just show it here?
It's not a cry for help, it's merely a prediction.  When previous attempts at calm, rational discourse have been twisted so horribly, so many times, you start to see a pattern emerge.  One that even a myopic social liberal, fiscal conservative, and civil libertarian will notice after a while.

Paul

Saundra

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 4:39 PM
To: Sue Hovey; Sunil Ramalingam; vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .

A few days after the accident when they are discussing the funerals on TV of the kids and are interviewing bereaved parents and getting the "man on the street's" view of things is a horrible time to try to sit down and have a rational conversation about what we can and cannot do to help strengthen our gun laws or figure out a better way to deal with mental health problems.  It's a great time to act if you are a group that has a preset agenda and just happens to have a bill all written up that you have been dying to pass, but that won't help anyone but the people with the agendas.  See our reaction as a country to 9/11 as a good lesson on this topic.

I'm hoping lawmakers will wait until the passion of the moment has died down and we have some distance before we try to rework the gun laws.  Fat chance, I know.

For instance, if I said "the
 second amendment is about more than protecting kindergartners from being shot", I would currently be lambasted as an uncaring person who is dancing on the graves of 6 year-olds or something.  *Maybe* in a few weeks we'll be able to really discuss it.  Anything we try to do in the meantime will almost certainly be an overreaction.

Paul

From: Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com>
To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Cc: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .

“Knee-jerk reaction or fear-driven acts.”  Those are interesting but patronizing ways to characterize the responses to these killings, and of the same mindset, I think, as “guns don’t kill people.”   We need to be considering all our options and we should have been doing that for a very long time.   Those of us who live here, own guns, and use them for hunting and self-protection need to be willing to look at the cultural issues that are bigger than our own mindsets.  Might it not be that we need to consider restating the Second Amendment in such a way as to prohibit private ownership of certain types of armament?  We already do some of that within the scope of the amendment; why not look further?  Why not consider the way we publicize the events...the murderer, who may have never had much in the way of self
 gratification, can be sure if his, yes his, crime is of a certain magnitude, he will be remembered for the way it was publicized with his face on every newscast and every front page? A First Amendment question....dare we consider it?    There are a lot of issues here, none of them trivial.  

Sue H.

From: Sunil Ramalingam 

Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 2:06 PM

To: vision 2020 

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .

But the cartoon doesn't advocate banning all guns. It shows someone leaving the NRA, which opposes the regulation you find reasonable.

The NRA's response to regulation is fear-driven. It's one of their marketing techniques, or to use another of your terms below, a knee-jerk reaction.

Sunil

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 14:01:04 -0800
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

There's a difference between being prepared and simply reacting to something.  I take a blanket and a flashlight with me on winter trips in the car, I carry jumper cables in the trunk, I have smoke alarms and a fire extinguisher in my house, I bring a space blanket, some matches, and a folding knife with me when I go hiking, and I keep a gun at home in case I need to protect myself.

Banning all guns because someone used one in a horrifying way appears to me to be more of a fear-driven act.  There is definitely room for improvement in who we sell guns to and how well we learn how to use them but that's a discussion that should happen after the knee-jerk reactions have passed.

Paul

From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
To: vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .

Paul,

Doesn't that apply to both sides of the argument?

Sunil

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 13:27:10 -0800
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .

If you want your life to be ruled by fear-driven reflex, sure.

Paul

From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
To: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:44 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Isn't it about time . . .

Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares"
http://www.moscowcares.com/

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

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List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
              http://www.fsr.net/
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
              http://www.fsr.net/
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

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 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
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