[Vision2020] [Spam 5.30] Re: [Spam 4.41] Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?( corrected)

Mon Dec 17 14:57:23 PST 2012

Do you see your assumption? You're assuming he would have been able to get his hands on an AR15. Now it looks like the family had money, but neither you nor I know how much money he had access to, and neither of us know if this person would have known where he could steal one, or if he could have been able to do so. 

Besides, you're going after outright bans of guns. What about regulation? Are you saying that regulations could not have made this more difficult?

Finally, was invading Iraq downright stupid? I askI'm curious about what else it takes to hit 'downright stupidity.'

Sunil
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:25:05 +0100
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
From: lfalen at turbonet.com
Subject: Re:[Spam 5.30] Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 4.41] Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?( corrected)

It should be obvious. Honest people will obey the law, criminals will not. They will either steal them or get them on the black market. Also it will embolden criminals it they think honest people do not have guns. It should also be pointed out that there are plenty of other ways to kill people, bombs for instance. Concentrate on mental health and improving safety at the schools.  Although Sandy Hoook had good security, other schools do not. Nothing is fail safe.
Roger

-----Original Message-----
Subject: [Spam 5.30] Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 4.41] Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?( corrected)
From: "Sunil Ramalingam" 
To: "vision 2020" 
Date: 12/17/12 22:02:22

Roger,

You say 'It is down right stupid to think that making gun ownership illigal  will prevent this sort of thing.'

Why?

Sunil

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:15:34 +0100
To: lfalen at turbonet.com; art.deco.studios at gmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
From: lfalen at turbonet.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 4.41] Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?( corrected)

-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 4.41] Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?
From: lfalen
To: "Art Deco" , vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: 12/17/12 21:02:00

It is down right stupid to think that making gun ownership illigal  will prevent this sort of thing. However some of the recommendations  made by Kistoff might make sense. While to date no mass killing has been stopped by someone else carrying a gun, it may have cut down on the number if someone there had a gun.  Overall areas where concealed carry is legal gun crime has been reduced. Requiring gun safety training before a permit is isssued makes sense. I think safety traing shold also be required to get a hunting licence.  Concealed carry is better than open carry. This way crimminals do not know who is armed and who is not. It is hard to understand what motivates these people. In the posssibility that part of it may be to make a name for themselves, it might help if the names of these  people were never reported.
Roger

-----Original Message-----
Subject: [Spam 4.41] [Vision2020] Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?
From: "Art Deco"
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: 12/17/12 12:58:32

December 15, 2012
Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF 

IN the harrowing aftermath of the school shooting in Connecticut, one thought wells in my mind: Why can't we regulate guns as seriously as we do cars?
The fundamental reason kids are dying in massacres like this one is not that we have lunatics or criminals - all countries have them - but that we suffer from a political failure to regulate guns.
Children ages 5 to 14 in America are 13 times as likely to be murdered with guns as children in other industrialized countries, according to David Hemenway, a public health specialist at Harvard who has written an excellent book on gun violence.
So let's treat firearms rationally as the center of a public health crisis that claims one life every 20 minutes. The United States realistically isn't going to ban guns, but we can take steps to reduce the carnage.
American schoolchildren are protected by building codes that govern stairways and windows. School buses must meet safety standards, and the bus drivers have to pass tests. Cafeteria food is regulated for safety. The only things we seem lax about are the things most likely to kill.
The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has five pages of regulations about ladders, while federal authorities shrug at serious curbs on firearms. Ladders kill around 300 Americans a year, and guns 30,000.
We even regulate toy guns, by requiring orange tips - but lawmakers don't have the gumption to stand up to National Rifle Association extremists and regulate real guns as carefully as we do toys. What do we make of the contrast between heroic teachers who stand up to a gunman and craven, feckless politicians who won't stand up to the N.R.A.?
As one of my Facebook followers wrote after I posted about the shooting, "It is more difficult to adopt a pet than it is to buy a gun."
Look, I grew up on an Oregon farm where guns were a part of life; and my dad gave me a .22 rifle for my 12th birthday. I understand: shooting is fun! But so is driving, and we accept that we must wear seat belts, use headlights at night, and fill out forms to buy a car. Why can't we be equally adult about regulating guns?
And don't say that it won't make a difference because crazies will always be able to get a gun. We're not going to eliminate gun deaths, any more than we have eliminated auto accidents. But if we could reduce gun deaths by one-third, that would be 10,000 lives saved annually.
Likewise, don't bother with the argument that if more people carried guns, they would deter shooters or interrupt them. Mass shooters typically kill themselves or are promptly caught, so it's hard to see what deterrence would be added by having more people pack heat. There have been few if any cases in the United States in which an ordinary citizen with a gun stopped a mass shooting.
The tragedy isn't one school shooting, it's the unceasing toll across our country. More Americans die in gun homicides and suicides in six months than have died in the last 25 years in every terrorist attack and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.
So what can we do? A starting point would be to limit gun purchases to one a month, to curb gun traffickers. Likewise, we should restrict the sale of high-capacity magazines so that a shooter can't kill as many people without reloading.
We should impose a universal background check for gun buyers, even with private sales. Let's make serial numbers more difficult to erase, and back California in its effort to require that new handguns imprint a microstamp on each shell so that it can be traced back to a particular gun.
"We've endured too many of these tragedies in the past few years," President Obama noted in a tearful statement on television. He's right, but the solution isn't just to mourn the victims - it's to change our policies. Let's see leadership on this issue, not just moving speeches.
Other countries offer a road map. In Australia in 1996, a mass killing of 35 people galvanized the nation's conservative prime minister to ban certain rapid-fire long guns. The "national firearms agreement," as it was known, led to the buyback of 650,000 guns and to tighter rules for licensing and safe storage of those remaining in public hands.
The law did not end gun ownership in Australia. It reduced the number of firearms in private hands by one-fifth, and they were the kinds most likely to be used in mass shootings.
In the 18 years before the law, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings - but not one in the 14 years after the law took full effect. The murder rate with firearms has dropped by more than 40 percent, according to data compiled by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and the suicide rate with firearms has dropped by more than half.
Or we can look north to Canada. It now requires a 28-day waiting period to buy a handgun, and it imposes a clever safeguard: gun buyers should have the support of two people vouching for them.
For that matter, we can look for inspiration at our own history on auto safety. As with guns, some auto deaths are caused by people who break laws or behave irresponsibly. But we don't shrug and say, "Cars don't kill people, drunks do."
Instead, we have required seat belts, air bags, child seats and crash safety standards. We have introduced limited licenses for young drivers and tried to curb the use of mobile phones while driving. All this has reduced America's traffic fatality rate per mile driven by nearly 90 percent since the 1950s.
Some of you are alive today because of those auto safety regulations. And if we don't treat guns in the same serious way, some of you and some of your children will die because of our failure.

I invite you to comment on this column on my blog, On the Ground. Please also join me on Facebook and Google+, watch my YouTube videos and follow me on Twitter. 
--
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com

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              http://www.fsr.net
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======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com ======================================================= 

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