[Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .

Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Sun Aug 12 19:21:07 PDT 2012 

Look here for the kind of argument I was giving.

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/01/05/will-your-gun-help-you-in-the/

Turns out this is a trickier issue than a thought given the factors
involved. Here's another thoughtful and interesting essay on the
topic.

http://azjauthor.blogspot.com/2012/01/do-guns-make-you-safe.html

Seems to take too many assumptions that work in your favor for
granted. Still, the underlying point is you're (maybe) safer owning a
gun if you are likely to be a victim of violent crime. But given the
rarity that actually happening, it isn't clear that the risks are
worth it.

Keep in mind that my original claim was just that it was a myth to say
that spree killings like Aurora could be prevented by someone carrying
a concealed weapon since, as far as I can tell, that has never yet
happened. I don't know how I could prove that it hasn't happened.
Likely it would be easier for you to prove me wrong if it had happened
which is why I issued the challenge.

Also I find it interesting that when we switch to the broader topic of
whether it is safer to own a gun or to not own a gun (since I
suggested the latter), many of the examples that you, Gary, and Roger
note are of cases of ROBBERY. Shooting someone who is trying to steal
from you strikes me as a clear example of the danger of owning a gun,
i.e., that one might escalate the situation from a threatening but
non-violent one to a violent one.

Joe

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Well, pony up your evidence.  Since we seem to be so focused on high
> visibility mass shootings, how many of those turned out worse because of
> someone with a CWP permit?  How many victims in such cases have been shot by
> someone with a CWP returning fire?
>
> I'm not exactly a gun nut, by the way, I'd never owned a gun before a couple
> of years ago when I inherited one.  I've shot a few, mostly when I was
> younger.  I would just like to talk about this as if I wasn't promoting a
> side, but no one here has allowed that.  Ever since my first post where I
> wondered what would have happened in Aurora if someone had a concealed
> firearm on their person I've ran headlong into a wall of (paraphrasing) "a
> guy with a concealed handgun could in no way, ever, actually be helpful in
> such a situation".
>
> Just to test my understanding, can you conceive of a situation involving a
> shooter on a killing spree where a responsible person with a concealed
> weapon might actually have helped things?
>
> Paul
>
> On 08/12/2012 09:44 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>>
>> I'm not denying anyone anything. It is annoying that no matter how
>> carefully I state my points you keep characterizing them as something
>> else -- in this case as an example of "rabid anti-gun rhetoric." I'm
>> not anti-gun or anti-2nd amendment. In fact, I've taken my son
>> shooting on several occasions in the past few months, with a
>> knowledgeable friend who has been offering gun safety lessons as well.
>> I don't own a gun for the reasons I've stated: I am far more likely to
>> hurt myself or others with it than to help anyone. And so are you and
>> so is nearly everyone. That's been my only point. Start carrying a gun
>> around to "protect" yourself and you are FAR more likely to do harm
>> than good. Yours is a fear-driven attitude with absolutely no evidence
>> to support it. Statistics prove this, as well as the fact that you
>> can't find one single example of a person saving the day in a
>> (potential) spree-killing. Not one. Yet you continue to hold on to the
>> view that it is not a myth. Mine is a very simple, reasonable,
>> rational point backed by countless evidence. For you to turn it into
>> some type of radical view is egregious but I'll have to get used to it
>> since you do this all the time.
>>
>> On Aug 12, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I guess there's no point in looking for other examples. Pre-planned,
>>> well-executed mass-murders just aren't common enough to give you those
>>> statistics and the percentage of CWP holder is (I'm guessing) relatively
>>> small, and most of these killing sprees happen in gun-free zones where
>>> law-abiding permit holders wouldn't be armed anyway.  This NY Times article
>>> claims that the Aurora theater banned firearms (even to permit holders),
>>> which places it in the category of "gun-free zones" too.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/21/us/colorado-gun-laws-remain-lax-despite-changes-after-columbine.html?_r=1
>>>
>>> If someone had you pinned down in a dark theater and you feared for your
>>> life wouldn't you want some way to defend yourself?  I don't get this rabid
>>> anti-gun rhetoric.  I notice the ban firearms policy didn't stop James
>>> Holmes from going on his killing spree. Metal detectors wouldn't have
>>> helped, either, because he left and came back through the exit doors which
>>> wouldn't have had them anyway.  Even a complete firearms ban country-wide
>>> wouldn't have helped because I doubt he would have had qualms about
>>> purchasing guns on the black market.  It might have taken him longer to
>>> prepare, is all.
>>>
>>> Short of a 1984-esque society, I don't know how you could stop this kind
>>> of thing.  Even if they were successful, this guy could have done what he
>>> did with a satchel full of Molotov cocktails. So why not even the odds and
>>> allow people the option of personal defense?
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> On 08/12/2012 07:10 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But this is a case in which someone did not use a gun to defend
>>>> himself against the attacker. According to the Pastor, "I was up there
>>>> preaching, and I stepped off of there into a chair and on the rail
>>>> that went around, and I dove right off and grabbed the gun." The
>>>> Pastor had concealed weapons training but didn't use a gun to prevent
>>>> further harm.
>>>>
>>>> Again, I have nothing against training, nothing against guns frankly
>>>> (though I think it is too easy to get guns in our country). My main
>>>> point is that guns usually do more harm than good. It is rare that
>>>> having a gun will actually help you and the evidence suggests that if
>>>> you own a gun you are far more likely to be harmed by it -- either by
>>>> accident or by an assailant taking it from you -- than you are of
>>>> protecting yourself in an Aurora type situation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's one that happened in Boiling Springs, SC.  Some links to news
>>>>> stories
>>>>> about it:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.wyff4.com/Deputies-Armed-Man-Kicks-In-Church-Door-During-Service/-/9324882/10075734/-/item/1/-/jjxqgj/-/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/25/Man-with-shotgun-arrested-at-SC-church/UPI-35931332729850/
>>>>>
>>>>> http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2012/03/26/sheriff-concealed-weapon-saves-church-from-man-armed-with-shotgun/
>>>>>
>>>>> tl;dr version:  A man with a CWP, armed, sees a man take a shotgun out
>>>>> of
>>>>> the trunk of his car during church services.  He warns the
>>>>> congregation, and
>>>>> locks the doors.  The man kicks in a side door and is disarmed and
>>>>> wrestled
>>>>> to the ground by parishioners and held at gunpoint by the guy with the
>>>>> concealed weapons permit until authorities arrive.  The shotgun the man
>>>>> had
>>>>> brought was loaded, and he claims he was going to kidnap the pastor.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know if this would have turned into a bloodbath if that guy
>>>>> hadn't
>>>>> acted quickly, I doubt anyone does.  That's the trouble with this sort
>>>>> of
>>>>> request as Gary alluded to.  We don't know that this would have been a
>>>>> tragedy without his help, but it sure might have been one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 08/11/2012 09:52 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well I can't. But you said it was a robbery, not a Columbine or Aurora
>>>>> type
>>>>> situation. Certainly you can't be sure he didn't prevent deaths; can't
>>>>> be
>>>>> sure their guns were loaded either. You just don't know. Paul was
>>>>> talking
>>>>> about an Aurora type situation, where the purpose is spree killing. Any
>>>>> examples of someone preventing that from happening with a handgun?
>>>>> Haven't
>>>>> heard or seen of one yet.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 11, 2012, at 8:28 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> So, logically speaking, how can you know what was prevented? How can
>>>>> you
>>>>> know that one of the bandits wouldn't have started shooting and not
>>>>> quit
>>>>> till the incident had assumed tragic proportions? Were did you acquire
>>>>> this
>>>>> awesome ability to determine what might and might not have been?
>>>>>
>>>>> g
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Joe Campbell
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 3:46 PM
>>>>> To: Gary Crabtree
>>>>> Cc: Paul Rumelhart ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting .
>>>>> . .
>>>>>
>>>>> Well whether someone used a gun and saved the day in a case like Aurora
>>>>> is
>>>>> either true or false. If true, when and where?
>>>>>
>>>>> The case you have is different. Robbers who shot NO ONE and were
>>>>> subsequently shot by an old man. Not a case of preventing violence by
>>>>> any
>>>>> means.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess your next suggestion is to get rid of police -- too much big
>>>>> government -- and it's everyone for himself.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 11, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> CWP holders will be reluctant to pipe up in as much as part of
>>>>> concealed is
>>>>> keeping your yap shut and avoiding telling all of Gods creation that
>>>>> you're
>>>>> healed. Your opinion is looked on with favor by some to be sure.
>>>>>
>>>>> A recent example of an armed citizen exercising his rights to good
>>>>> effect:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html
>>>>>
>>>>> To say that a guy with a hand gun has never prevented a massacre is
>>>>> illogical in as much as who can say what might have happened had a
>>>>> different
>>>>> path been followed? In one scenario two goblins are wounded and taken
>>>>> to
>>>>> jail. In another, a dozen innocents minding their own business in a
>>>>> internet
>>>>> café are senselessly murdered...film at 11:00
>>>>>
>>>>> g
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Paul Rumelhart
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:57 AM
>>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting .
>>>>> . .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, you'd have to be damn sure about your line of fire.  Firing in the
>>>>> middle of a frenzied crowd running panicked for the exits would surely
>>>>> be
>>>>> asking for trouble.  However, it's my understanding that for a while
>>>>> during
>>>>> the shooting the shooter had complete control of the situation.  Anyone
>>>>> trying to leave was shot.  Many people were playing dead in the hopes
>>>>> they
>>>>> would  be passed over.  Firing on the shooter, even if he's in body
>>>>> armor,
>>>>> might distract him enough that some people might have made it to the
>>>>> exits.
>>>>> Body armor doesn't make you invincible, depending on the armor and the
>>>>> caliber of the weapon used you might still have made an impact, since
>>>>> he'd
>>>>> still be hit by the blunt force of the bullet.  In this situation,
>>>>> though,
>>>>> you would probably also have been shot dead shortly after because he
>>>>> was so
>>>>> well prepared (vest, leggings, throat protector, groin protector, and a
>>>>> helmet with a visor).  Who knows?  Telling a loved one "when I start
>>>>> shooting, RUN for the exit and don't stop" might have worked.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most other shootings like this we've heard about haven't involved such
>>>>> a
>>>>> heavily armored assailant.  In fact, quite a few of them have taken
>>>>> place in
>>>>> areas where gun use is often restricted, such as in schools or on
>>>>> university
>>>>> campuses.  Harris and Kliebold wore T-shirts and cargo pants at
>>>>> Columbine.
>>>>> A student who had happened to have smuggled a gun into the school might
>>>>> have
>>>>> been able to have had a real impact on that event.
>>>>>
>>>>> An interesting thing to think about, in my opinion.  Apparently, that
>>>>> opinion is not shared on this list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 08/11/2012 08:13 AM, Art Deco wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It's hard to think of something more foolish than someone or ones with
>>>>> a
>>>>> hand gun in a disorganized, panicky crowd trying to shoot a person with
>>>>> a
>>>>> automatic weapon shielded by body armor.  How many more victims would
>>>>> be
>>>>> added to the final body count?
>>>>>
>>>>> Didn't something like this happen in the Moscow Massacre?
>>>>>
>>>>> w.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Donovan Arnold
>>>>> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While your wife if shopping Tri-State, you should be to. I mean come
>>>>>> on,
>>>>>> support your community why don't you. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Donovan J. Arnold
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>>>>>> To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>>>>>> Cc: "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:47 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting
>>>>>> . .
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You may very well be right, Sunil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just a habit I have acquired while in the service.  Trust those
>>>>>> around you, but keep your powder dry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I saw the poster at Tri-State.  And, as I've said before, this is the
>>>>>> first time I have seen such an advertisement in Moscow.  I checked a
>>>>>> few
>>>>>> things out, such as its website, phone number, etc. etc. etc. (Hey, I
>>>>>> needed
>>>>>> something to pass the time while my wife was shopping at Tri-State).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The more I dug, the more red flags I found.  The more red flags I
>>>>>> found,
>>>>>> the more I dug.  I have so many info sources, concerning the NFT
>>>>>> Academy,
>>>>>> bookmarked for reference I am thinking of discarding half of 'em.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The
>>>>>> college
>>>>>> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
>>>>>> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've taken such a class and in the past had a concealed weapon permit;
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> knows, I may again. I don't think this class is a big deal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sunil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: thansen at moscow.com
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:41:58 -0700
>>>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting
>>>>>> . .
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The primary reason this caught my eye . . .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have lived here in Moscow for just over twenty years.  The is the
>>>>>> FIRST
>>>>>> time I have seen concealed-weapon classes openly advertised in town.
>>>>>> Couple
>>>>>> that up with the increasing paranoia, as a result of the recent
>>>>>> instances in
>>>>>> Aurora (Colorado) and Milwaukee (Wisconsin), and I feel I have a right
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>> curious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, the NFT Academy website has only been in existence since April
>>>>>> 2012
>>>>>> and was not publicly released until June 12, 2012 (TWO MONTHS AGO).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://fiddlerstudios.com/created-by-fs/announcing-the-national-firearms-training-academy-website/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have more info to share, concerning the NFT Academy and its website,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> let's see where this thread leads.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The
>>>>>> college
>>>>>> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 10, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
>>>>>> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something legal? The nerve! Next they'll be selling guns!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sunil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: thansen at moscow.com
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:24:56 -0700
>>>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>> Subject: [Vision2020] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The
>>>>>> college
>>>>>> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>>>>>
>

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