[Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .

Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 12 18:29:03 PDT 2012


On 08/12/2012 02:50 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
> I think that possibility is about as slim as Paul's suggestion that 
> someone with a CCW permit and a weapon may have stopped the bloodshed 
> at Aurora.

That wasn't actually a suggestion.  It was more along the lines of "I 
wonder what I would do if I had a concealed weapon and the Aurora thing 
went down".  But everybody took it for a call to arms or something.  I 
still don't know what I would have done.  I remember Robert Heinlein in 
one of books talking about how it's sometimes best to go into a 
dangerous area armed with a knife rather than a gun.  The thinking is 
that the gun makes you too careless, the knife makes you far more 
careful.  In the same vein, I've heard it said that it's safer to use a 
sharp knife than a dull one.  The sharp knife demands respect lest you 
cut yourself accidentally, the dull knife does not.  But you can still 
cut yourself with a dull knife. Ignoring the politics, what do others think?

Paul

>
> But I've heard the argument made at CCW classes that it's responsible 
> people who apply for such permits and who actually carry legally. 
> While I generally agree that most people with permits are law-abiding, 
> the fact is that there isn't any fool-proof way to make sure that only 
> people who will use weapons responsibly will actually receive such 
> permits.
>
> I say this as someone who supports such permits. But I don't think 
> that the training you need to get one in any way makes the average 
> permit holder capable of taking on someone like the guy in Aurora and 
> stopping him; I think that's just a fantasy.
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: thansen at moscow.com
> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:01:59 -0700
> To: godshatter at yahoo.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting 
> . . .
>
> Very, very possibly . . .
>
> Since he could not carry his weapon concealed, he may possibly have 
> been arrested earlir for carrying a concealed weapon without a permit.
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The 
> college students are not very active in local elections (thank 
> goodness!)."
>
> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>
> On Aug 12, 2012, at 12:56 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com 
> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     Do you think his not having a concealed handgun permit would have
>     stopped this tragedy?  Honest question, not a "zinger".
>
>     Paul
>
>     On 08/12/2012 12:28 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>
>         Courtesy of the Huffington Post at:
>
>         http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/seattle-mass-shooting-lat_b_1563392.html
>         -----------------------------------
>
>
>           Seattle Mass Shooting Latest by a Concealed Handgun Permit
>           Holder
>
>         Posted: 06/01/2012 3:20 pm
>
>         Another day, another mass shooting committed by a private
>         citizen legally allowed to carry a concealed, loaded handgun
>         in public.
>
>         This time it was 40-year-old Ian Stawicki
>         <http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Police-Seattle-shootings-were-like-an-execution-3599900.php#ixzz1wYVmZm5l>,
>         who entered a Seattle cafe on Wednesday and opened fire,
>         killing four people. He then left Cafe Racer, killing another
>         person during a carjacking before taking his own life.
>
>         The pro-gun reaction to this most recent slaughter by a
>         concealed handgun permit holder? That's life.
>
>         As pro-gun advocate Dave Workman, a loyal foot soldier in the
>         pro-gun publishing and lobbying empire of convicted felon Alan
>         Gottlieb explained <http://kuow.org/program.php?id=26924> to
>         local NPR affiliate KUOW:
>
>             "I don't know that there's anything you can do in these
>             situations. We can't treat him like a child, he's got his
>             own life to live and he can make his own mistakes no
>             matter how horrific those mistakes turn out to be."
>
>         "Those mistakes" happen all too often. According to a running
>         tally <http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm> maintained by my
>         organization, the Violence Policy Center
>         <http://www.vpc.org/index.htm>, since May 2007, nearly 450
>         people have been killed in 334 non-self defense incidents by
>         private citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns.
>
>         Not including this week's attack in Seattle, 20 of those
>         incidents have been mass shootings of three victims or more,
>         resulting in the deaths of 89 innocent victims.
>
>         Listed below, they run the gamut from family annihilators to
>         workplace shooters, murder-suicides to attempted political
>         assassination:
>
>           * In July 2011, in Texas, Tan Do, 35, opened fire at his
>             son's 11th birthday party being held at the Forum Roller
>             World in Grand Prairie, Texas, killing the boy's mother
>             and four members of her family before taking his own life.
>           * In June 2011, in Arizona, Carey H. Dyess, 73, went on an
>             hours-long shooting rampage in two communities, killing
>             five before taking his own life.
>           * In January 2011, in Arizona, Jared Lee Loughner, 22,
>             opened fire at a "Congress on Your Corner" constituent
>             event held by Arizona U.S. Representative Gabrielle
>             Giffords outside a Tucson Safeway supermarket. Loughner
>             killed six people, including a federal judge and a
>             nine-year-old girl, and injured 13, including Giffords,
>             who was shot once the face.
>           * In August 2010, in Connecticut, Omar Thornton, 34, went on
>             a shooting rampage at the beer distributorship where he
>             worked, killing eight co-workers before taking his own life.
>           * In June 2010, in Florida, Gerardo Regalado, 38, committed
>             Hialeah, Florida's worst mass shooting: killing four women
>             and wounding three others at the Yoyito Cafe-Restaurant.
>           * In March 2010, in Tennessee, Michael Joe Hood, 49, shot
>             and killed his sister Susan Hood Binkley, 44, her
>             ex-husband Dale Binkley, 42, and their 13-year-old son
>             Jackson Binkley.
>           * In January 2010, in Virginia, Christopher Speight
>             allegedly shot and killed eight people including his
>             sister and her husband, their 15-year-old daughter and
>             four-year-old son, as well as two teenagers aged 15 and 16.
>           * In December 2009, in Utah, Justin Matern shot and killed
>             his wife and two sons, ages six and four, before turning
>             the gun on himself.
>           * On Thanksgiving Day 2009, in Florida, Paul Michael Merhige
>             allegedly opened fire at his family's Thanksgiving dinner
>             shooting six relatives, killing four. The deceased victims
>             were his twin sisters (one of whom was pregnant), his
>             76-year-old aunt, and a six-year-old cousin. As he left
>             the scene, Merhige was quoted by one witness as saying, "I
>             have been waiting 20 years for this."
>           * In November 2009, in North Carolina, William Maxwell shot
>             and killed his wife Kathryn and their teenage children
>             Conner and Cameron before killing himself.
>           * In August 2009, in Pennsylvania, George Sodini, 48, opened
>             fire at an LA Fitness Center in Collier, Pennsylvania,
>             killing three women and wounding nine others before
>             turning the gun on himself.
>           * In April 2009, in Pennsylvania, white supremacist Richard
>             Poplawski shot and killed police officers Stephen Mayhle,
>             Paul Sciullo, and Eric Kelly while injuring another.
>           * In March 2009, in Alabama, Michael McLendon, a
>             self-proclaimed survivalist, killed his mother at their
>             family home, beginning a shooting rampage that stretched
>             across 24 miles. By the time McLendon took his own life in
>             the midst of a police shootout at a factory where he had
>             previously worked, he had shot four more relatives,
>             including his 74-year-old grandmother, and five strangers,
>             including the wife and 18-month-old daughter of a local
>             sheriff's deputy.
>           * In February 2009, in New York, Frank Garcia opened fire
>             with a .40 Glock pistol in the Lakeside Memorial Hospital
>             parking lot in Brockport, NY. He had recently been fired
>             by the hospital. He shot three people there, killing two,
>             before killing a married couple at their home in Canandaigua.
>           * In September 2008, in Michigan, Troy Brake, 31, shot to
>             death 52-year-old Sharmaine Zimmer, her sons, Tyler, 17,
>             and Jeremy, 20, and beat to death Jeremy's girlfriend,
>             university student Katherine Brown, 18.
>           * In May 2008, in Virginia, Aaron Poseidon Jackson, 24, shot
>             and killed his two children, one-year-old Aaron Neptune
>             Jackson and two-year-old Nicole Aaron Jackson, and their
>             mother Latasha Nicole Thomas, before taking his own life.
>           * In March 2008, in Georgia, former substitute teacher
>             Charles Johnston entered Doctors Hospital in Columbus,
>             Georgia, carrying three handguns: a .32, a 380, and a 9mm.
>             Johnson allegedly killed two people in the hospital and a
>             victim in the parking lot.
>           * In September 2007, in Florida, Guillermo Zarabozo and
>             another man hired a charter boat, later killing the boat's
>             crew of four. Zarabozo was found guilty of the four murders.
>           * In July 2007, in Ohio, firefighter Terrance Hough Jr. used
>             a 40 caliber pistol to shoot and kill neighbor Jacob
>             Feichtner as well as Bruce Anderson and Katherine Rosby as
>             a result of a dispute over fireworks the three were
>             setting off on the Fourth of July. Hough also shot and
>             injured two others. Hough's fellow firefighters described
>             him as a "ticking time bomb that finally exploded."
>           * In May 2007, in Idaho, Jason Kenneth Hamilton, a member of
>             the white supremacist group Aryan Nation, shot and killed
>             his wife, a police officer, and a church sexton, and
>             wounded three others before turning the gun on himself in
>             a shooting spree in Moscow, Idaho. Hamilton had a
>             concealed handgun permit "despite a [previous] domestic
>             violence conviction that should have barred him from
>             owning guns.
>             <http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwlawenforcement.pdf>"
>
>         Because most states don't release detailed information on
>         crimes committed by concealed handgun permit holders, the
>         incidents listed above are from news reports. The actual
>         number of lethal non-self defense incidents involving private
>         citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns is most
>         likely far, far higher.
>
>         And yet, according to concealed carry advocate Dave Workman,
>         concealed handgun permit holder and mass shooter Ian Stawicki
>         had "his own life to live."
>
>         What about his victims and their families?
>
>         -----------------------------------
>
>         Seeya round town, Moscow.
>
>         Tom Hansen
>         Moscow, Idaho
>
>         "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.
>          The college students are not very active in local elections
>         (thank goodness!)."
>
>         - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>
>         On Aug 12, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Paul Rumelhart
>         <godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>
>             Well, pony up your evidence.  Since we seem to be so
>             focused on high visibility mass shootings, how many of
>             those turned out worse because of someone with a CWP
>             permit?  How many victims in such cases have been shot by
>             someone with a CWP returning fire?
>
>             I'm not exactly a gun nut, by the way, I'd never owned a
>             gun before a couple of years ago when I inherited one.
>              I've shot a few, mostly when I was younger.  I would just
>             like to talk about this as if I wasn't promoting a side,
>             but no one here has allowed that.  Ever since my first
>             post where I wondered what would have happened in Aurora
>             if someone had a concealed firearm on their person I've
>             ran headlong into a wall of (paraphrasing) "a guy with a
>             concealed handgun could in no way, ever, actually be
>             helpful in such a situation".
>
>             Just to test my understanding, can you conceive of a
>             situation involving a shooter on a killing spree where a
>             responsible person with a concealed weapon might actually
>             have helped things?
>
>             Paul
>
>             On 08/12/2012 09:44 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>
>                 I'm not denying anyone anything. It is annoying that
>                 no matter how
>
>                 carefully I state my points you keep characterizing
>                 them as something
>
>                 else -- in this case as an example of "rabid anti-gun
>                 rhetoric." I'm
>
>                 not anti-gun or anti-2nd amendment. In fact, I've
>                 taken my son
>
>                 shooting on several occasions in the past few months,
>                 with a
>
>                 knowledgeable friend who has been offering gun safety
>                 lessons as well.
>
>                 I don't own a gun for the reasons I've stated: I am
>                 far more likely to
>
>                 hurt myself or others with it than to help anyone. And
>                 so are you and
>
>                 so is nearly everyone. That's been my only point.
>                 Start carrying a gun
>
>                 around to "protect" yourself and you are FAR more
>                 likely to do harm
>
>                 than good. Yours is a fear-driven attitude with
>                 absolutely no evidence
>
>                 to support it. Statistics prove this, as well as the
>                 fact that you
>
>                 can't find one single example of a person saving the
>                 day in a
>
>                 (potential) spree-killing. Not one. Yet you continue
>                 to hold on to the
>
>                 view that it is not a myth. Mine is a very simple,
>                 reasonable,
>
>                 rational point backed by countless evidence. For you
>                 to turn it into
>
>                 some type of radical view is egregious but I'll have
>                 to get used to it
>
>                 since you do this all the time.
>
>
>                 On Aug 12, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Paul Rumelhart
>                 <godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>>
>                 wrote:
>
>
>                     I guess there's no point in looking for other
>                     examples. Pre-planned, well-executed mass-murders
>                     just aren't common enough to give you those
>                     statistics and the percentage of CWP holder is
>                     (I'm guessing) relatively small, and most of these
>                     killing sprees happen in gun-free zones where
>                     law-abiding permit holders wouldn't be armed
>                     anyway.  This NY Times article claims that the
>                     Aurora theater banned firearms (even to permit
>                     holders), which places it in the category of
>                     "gun-free zones" too.
>
>
>                     http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/21/us/colorado-gun-laws-remain-lax-despite-changes-after-columbine.html?_r=1
>
>
>                     If someone had you pinned down in a dark theater
>                     and you feared for your life wouldn't you want
>                     some way to defend yourself?  I don't get this
>                     rabid anti-gun rhetoric.  I notice the ban
>                     firearms policy didn't stop James Holmes from
>                     going on his killing spree. Metal detectors
>                     wouldn't have helped, either, because he left and
>                     came back through the exit doors which wouldn't
>                     have had them anyway.  Even a complete firearms
>                     ban country-wide wouldn't have helped because I
>                     doubt he would have had qualms about purchasing
>                     guns on the black market.  It might have taken him
>                     longer to prepare, is all.
>
>
>                     Short of a 1984-esque society, I don't know how
>                     you could stop this kind of thing.  Even if they
>                     were successful, this guy could have done what he
>                     did with a satchel full of Molotov cocktails. So
>                     why not even the odds and allow people the option
>                     of personal defense?
>
>
>                     Paul
>
>
>                     On 08/12/2012 07:10 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>
>                         But this is a case in which someone did not
>                         use a gun to defend
>
>                         himself against the attacker. According to the
>                         Pastor, "I was up there
>
>                         preaching, and I stepped off of there into a
>                         chair and on the rail
>
>                         that went around, and I dove right off and
>                         grabbed the gun." The
>
>                         Pastor had concealed weapons training but
>                         didn't use a gun to prevent
>
>                         further harm.
>
>
>                         Again, I have nothing against training,
>                         nothing against guns frankly
>
>                         (though I think it is too easy to get guns in
>                         our country). My main
>
>                         point is that guns usually do more harm than
>                         good. It is rare that
>
>                         having a gun will actually help you and the
>                         evidence suggests that if
>
>                         you own a gun you are far more likely to be
>                         harmed by it -- either by
>
>                         accident or by an assailant taking it from you
>                         -- than you are of
>
>                         protecting yourself in an Aurora type situation.
>
>
>
>                         On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Paul
>                         Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com
>                         <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>                             Here's one that happened in Boiling
>                             Springs, SC.  Some links to news stories
>
>                             about it:
>
>
>                             http://www.wyff4.com/Deputies-Armed-Man-Kicks-In-Church-Door-During-Service/-/9324882/10075734/-/item/1/-/jjxqgj/-/index.html
>
>                             http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/25/Man-with-shotgun-arrested-at-SC-church/UPI-35931332729850/
>
>                             http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2012/03/26/sheriff-concealed-weapon-saves-church-from-man-armed-with-shotgun/
>
>
>                             tl;dr version:  A man with a CWP, armed,
>                             sees a man take a shotgun out of
>
>                             the trunk of his car during church
>                             services.  He warns the congregation, and
>
>                             locks the doors.  The man kicks in a side
>                             door and is disarmed and wrestled
>
>                             to the ground by parishioners and held at
>                             gunpoint by the guy with the
>
>                             concealed weapons permit until authorities
>                             arrive.  The shotgun the man had
>
>                             brought was loaded, and he claims he was
>                             going to kidnap the pastor.
>
>
>                             I don't know if this would have turned
>                             into a bloodbath if that guy hadn't
>
>                             acted quickly, I doubt anyone does.
>                              That's the trouble with this sort of
>
>                             request as Gary alluded to.  We don't know
>                             that this would have been a
>
>                             tragedy without his help, but it sure
>                             might have been one.
>
>
>                             Paul
>
>
>
>                             On 08/11/2012 09:52 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>
>
>                             Well I can't. But you said it was a
>                             robbery, not a Columbine or Aurora type
>
>                             situation. Certainly you can't be sure he
>                             didn't prevent deaths; can't be
>
>                             sure their guns were loaded either. You
>                             just don't know. Paul was talking
>
>                             about an Aurora type situation, where the
>                             purpose is spree killing. Any
>
>                             examples of someone preventing that from
>                             happening with a handgun? Haven't
>
>                             heard or seen of one yet.
>
>
>
>
>                             On Aug 11, 2012, at 8:28 PM, "Gary
>                             Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com
>                             <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>> wrote:
>
>
>                             So, logically speaking, how can you know
>                             what was prevented? How can you
>
>                             know that one of the bandits wouldn't have
>                             started shooting and not quit
>
>                             till the incident had assumed tragic
>                             proportions? Were did you acquire this
>
>                             awesome ability to determine what might
>                             and might not have been?
>
>
>                             g
>
>
>                             From: Joe Campbell
>
>                             Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 3:46 PM
>
>                             To: Gary Crabtree
>
>                             Cc: Paul Rumelhart ;
>                             <vision2020 at moscow.com
>                             <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
>
>                             Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See
>                             What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
>
>
>                             Well whether someone used a gun and saved
>                             the day in a case like Aurora is
>
>                             either true or false. If true, when and where?
>
>
>                             The case you have is different. Robbers
>                             who shot NO ONE and were
>
>                             subsequently shot by an old man. Not a
>                             case of preventing violence by any
>
>                             means.
>
>
>                             I guess your next suggestion is to get rid
>                             of police -- too much big
>
>                             government -- and it's everyone for himself.
>
>
>                             On Aug 11, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "Gary
>                             Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com
>                             <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>> wrote:
>
>
>                             CWP holders will be reluctant to pipe up
>                             in as much as part of concealed is
>
>                             keeping your yap shut and avoiding telling
>                             all of Gods creation that you're
>
>                             healed. Your opinion is looked on with
>                             favor by some to be sure.
>
>
>                             A recent example of an armed citizen
>                             exercising his rights to good effect:
>
>
>                             http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html
>
>
>                             To say that a guy with a hand gun has
>                             never prevented a massacre is
>
>                             illogical in as much as who can say what
>                             might have happened had a different
>
>                             path been followed? In one scenario two
>                             goblins are wounded and taken to
>
>                             jail. In another, a dozen innocents
>                             minding their own business in a internet
>
>                             café are senselessly murdered...film at 11:00
>
>
>                             g
>
>
>                             From: Paul Rumelhart
>
>                             Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:57 AM
>
>                             To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>                             <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>
>                             Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See
>                             What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
>
>
>
>                             Yes, you'd have to be damn sure about your
>                             line of fire.  Firing in the
>
>                             middle of a frenzied crowd running
>                             panicked for the exits would surely be
>
>                             asking for trouble.  However, it's my
>                             understanding that for a while during
>
>                             the shooting the shooter had complete
>                             control of the situation.  Anyone
>
>                             trying to leave was shot.  Many people
>                             were playing dead in the hopes they
>
>                             would  be passed over.  Firing on the
>                             shooter, even if he's in body armor,
>
>                             might distract him enough that some people
>                             might have made it to the exits.
>
>                             Body armor doesn't make you invincible,
>                             depending on the armor and the
>
>                             caliber of the weapon used you might still
>                             have made an impact, since he'd
>
>                             still be hit by the blunt force of the
>                             bullet.  In this situation, though,
>
>                             you would probably also have been shot
>                             dead shortly after because he was so
>
>                             well prepared (vest, leggings, throat
>                             protector, groin protector, and a
>
>                             helmet with a visor).  Who knows?  Telling
>                             a loved one "when I start
>
>                             shooting, RUN for the exit and don't stop"
>                             might have worked.
>
>
>                             Most other shootings like this we've heard
>                             about haven't involved such a
>
>                             heavily armored assailant.  In fact, quite
>                             a few of them have taken place in
>
>                             areas where gun use is often restricted,
>                             such as in schools or on university
>
>                             campuses.  Harris and Kliebold wore
>                             T-shirts and cargo pants at Columbine.
>
>                             A student who had happened to have
>                             smuggled a gun into the school might have
>
>                             been able to have had a real impact on
>                             that event.
>
>
>                             An interesting thing to think about, in my
>                             opinion.  Apparently, that
>
>                             opinion is not shared on this list.
>
>
>                             Paul
>
>
>
>                             On 08/11/2012 08:13 AM, Art Deco wrote:
>
>
>                             It's hard to think of something more
>                             foolish than someone or ones with a
>
>                             hand gun in a disorganized, panicky crowd
>                             trying to shoot a person with a
>
>                             automatic weapon shielded by body armor.
>                              How many more victims would be
>
>                             added to the final body count?
>
>
>                             Didn't something like this happen in the
>                             Moscow Massacre?
>
>
>                             w.
>
>
>                             On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Donovan
>                             Arnold
>
>                             <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>                             <mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>                                 Tom,
>
>
>                                 While your wife if shopping Tri-State,
>                                 you should be to. I mean come on,
>
>                                 support your community why don't you. :)
>
>
>                                 Donovan J. Arnold
>
>
>                                 From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com
>                                 <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>>
>
>                                 To: Sunil Ramalingam
>                                 <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>                                 <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>>
>
>                                 Cc: "<vision2020 at moscow.com
>                                 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>"
>                                 <vision2020 at moscow.com
>                                 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
>
>                                 Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:47 PM
>
>
>                                 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look
>                                 See What Tri-State is Promoting . .
>
>                                 .
>
>
>                                 You may very well be right, Sunil.
>
>
>                                 It's just a habit I have acquired
>                                 while in the service.  Trust those
>
>                                 around you, but keep your powder dry.
>
>
>                                 I saw the poster at Tri-State.  And,
>                                 as I've said before, this is the
>
>                                 first time I have seen such an
>                                 advertisement in Moscow.  I checked a few
>
>                                 things out, such as its website, phone
>                                 number, etc. etc. etc. (Hey, I needed
>
>                                 something to pass the time while my
>                                 wife was shopping at Tri-State).
>
>
>                                 The more I dug, the more red flags I
>                                 found.  The more red flags I found,
>
>                                 the more I dug.  I have so many info
>                                 sources, concerning the NFT Academy,
>
>                                 bookmarked for reference I am thinking
>                                 of discarding half of 'em.
>
>
>                                 Seeya round town, Moscow.
>
>
>                                 Tom Hansen
>
>                                 Moscow, Idaho
>
>
>                                 "We're a town of about 23,000 with
>                                 10,000 college students.  The college
>
>                                 students are not very active in local
>                                 elections (thank goodness!)."
>
>
>                                 - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>
>
>
>                                 On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Sunil
>                                 Ramalingam
>
>                                 <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>                                 <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>>
>                                 wrote:
>
>
>                                 I've taken such a class and in the
>                                 past had a concealed weapon permit; who
>
>                                 knows, I may again. I don't think this
>                                 class is a big deal.
>
>
>                                 Sunil
>
>
>                                 From: thansen at moscow.com
>                                 <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>
>
>                                 Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:41:58 -0700
>
>                                 To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>                                 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>
>                                 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look
>                                 See What Tri-State is Promoting . .
>
>                                 .
>
>
>                                 The primary reason this caught my eye
>                                 . . .
>
>
>                                 I have lived here in Moscow for just
>                                 over twenty years.  The is the FIRST
>
>                                 time I have seen concealed-weapon
>                                 classes openly advertised in town.  Couple
>
>                                 that up with the increasing paranoia,
>                                 as a result of the recent instances in
>
>                                 Aurora (Colorado) and Milwaukee
>                                 (Wisconsin), and I feel I have a right
>                                 to be
>
>                                 curious.
>
>
>                                 BTW, the NFT Academy website has only
>                                 been in existence since April 2012
>
>                                 and was not publicly released until
>                                 June 12, 2012 (TWO MONTHS AGO).
>
>
>
>                                 http://fiddlerstudios.com/created-by-fs/announcing-the-national-firearms-training-academy-website/
>
>
>                                 I have more info to share, concerning
>                                 the NFT Academy and its website, but
>
>                                 let's see where this thread leads.
>
>
>                                 Seeya round town, Moscow.
>
>
>                                 Tom Hansen
>
>                                 Moscow, Idaho
>
>
>                                 "We're a town of about 23,000 with
>                                 10,000 college students.  The college
>
>                                 students are not very active in local
>                                 elections (thank goodness!)."
>
>
>                                 - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>
>
>
>                                 On Aug 10, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Sunil
>                                 Ramalingam
>
>                                 <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>                                 <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>>
>                                 wrote:
>
>
>                                 Something legal? The nerve! Next
>                                 they'll be selling guns!
>
>
>                                 Sunil
>
>
>                                 From: thansen at moscow.com
>                                 <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>
>
>                                 Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:24:56 -0700
>
>                                 To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>                                 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>
>                                 Subject: [Vision2020] Look See What
>                                 Tri-State is Promoting . . .
>
>
>
>
>                                 Seeya round town, Moscow.
>
>
>                                 Tom Hansen
>
>                                 Moscow, Idaho
>
>
>                                 "We're a town of about 23,000 with
>                                 10,000 college students.  The college
>
>                                 students are not very active in local
>                                 elections (thank goodness!)."
>
>
>
>                                 - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>
>
>
>
>                                 =======================================================
>                                 List services made
>
>                                 available by First Step Internet,
>                                 serving the communities of the Palouse
>
>                                 since 1994. http://www.fsr.net/
>                                 mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>
>                                 =======================================================
>
>
>                                 =======================================================
>
>                                 List services made available by First
>                                 Step Internet,
>
>                                 serving the communities of the Palouse
>                                 since 1994.
>
>                                 http://www.fsr.net/
>
>                                 mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>
>                                 =======================================================
>
>
>
>                                 =======================================================
>                                 List services made
>
>                                 available by First Step Internet,
>                                 serving the communities of the Palouse
>
>                                 since 1994. http://www.fsr.net/
>                                 mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>
>                                 =======================================================
>
>
>                                 =======================================================
>
>                                 List services made available by First
>                                 Step I
>
>                             =======================================================
>
>                             List services made available by First Step
>                             Internet,
>
>                             serving the communities of the Palouse
>                             since 1994.
>
>                             http://www.fsr.net
>
>                             mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>
>                             =======================================================
>
>
>
>
>             =======================================================
>             List services made available by First Step Internet,
>             serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>             http://www.fsr.net
>             mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>             =======================================================
>
>
>
> ======================================================= List services 
> made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the 
> Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com 
> =======================================================
>
>
> =======================================================
>   List services made available by First Step Internet,
>   serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                 http://www.fsr.net
>            mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================

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