[Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .

Sun Aug 12 15:23:58 PDT 2012

America's First Freedon published by the NRA has a monthly feature " Armed Citizen"  It documents cases where a citizen prevented a crime or stopped a home invader, sometime preventing a rape or murder. 
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 07:10:38 -0700
To: Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .

> But this is a case in which someone did not use a gun to defend
> himself against the attacker. According to the Pastor, "I was up there
> preaching, and I stepped off of there into a chair and on the rail
> that went around, and I dove right off and grabbed the gun." The
> Pastor had concealed weapons training but didn't use a gun to prevent
> further harm.
> 
> Again, I have nothing against training, nothing against guns frankly
> (though I think it is too easy to get guns in our country). My main
> point is that guns usually do more harm than good. It is rare that
> having a gun will actually help you and the evidence suggests that if
> you own a gun you are far more likely to be harmed by it -- either by
> accident or by an assailant taking it from you -- than you are of
> protecting yourself in an Aurora type situation.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Here's one that happened in Boiling Springs, SC.  Some links to news stories
> > about it:
> >
> > http://www.wyff4.com/Deputies-Armed-Man-Kicks-In-Church-Door-During-Service/-/9324882/10075734/-/item/1/-/jjxqgj/-/index.html
> > http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/25/Man-with-shotgun-arrested-at-SC-church/UPI-35931332729850/
> > http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2012/03/26/sheriff-concealed-weapon-saves-church-from-man-armed-with-shotgun/
> >
> > tl;dr version:  A man with a CWP, armed, sees a man take a shotgun out of
> > the trunk of his car during church services.  He warns the congregation, and
> > locks the doors.  The man kicks in a side door and is disarmed and wrestled
> > to the ground by parishioners and held at gunpoint by the guy with the
> > concealed weapons permit until authorities arrive.  The shotgun the man had
> > brought was loaded, and he claims he was going to kidnap the pastor.
> >
> > I don't know if this would have turned into a bloodbath if that guy hadn't
> > acted quickly, I doubt anyone does.  That's the trouble with this sort of
> > request as Gary alluded to.  We don't know that this would have been a
> > tragedy without his help, but it sure might have been one.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > On 08/11/2012 09:52 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
> >
> > Well I can't. But you said it was a robbery, not a Columbine or Aurora type
> > situation. Certainly you can't be sure he didn't prevent deaths; can't be
> > sure their guns were loaded either. You just don't know. Paul was talking
> > about an Aurora type situation, where the purpose is spree killing. Any
> > examples of someone preventing that from happening with a handgun? Haven't
> > heard or seen of one yet.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 11, 2012, at 8:28 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >
> > So, logically speaking, how can you know what was prevented? How can you
> > know that one of the bandits wouldn't have started shooting and not quit
> > till the incident had assumed tragic proportions? Were did you acquire this
> > awesome ability to determine what might and might not have been?
> >
> > g
> >
> > From: Joe Campbell
> > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 3:46 PM
> > To: Gary Crabtree
> > Cc: Paul Rumelhart ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
> >
> > Well whether someone used a gun and saved the day in a case like Aurora is
> > either true or false. If true, when and where?
> >
> > The case you have is different. Robbers who shot NO ONE and were
> > subsequently shot by an old man. Not a case of preventing violence by any
> > means.
> >
> > I guess your next suggestion is to get rid of police -- too much big
> > government -- and it's everyone for himself.
> >
> > On Aug 11, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >
> > CWP holders will be reluctant to pipe up in as much as part of concealed is
> > keeping your yap shut and avoiding telling all of Gods creation that you're
> > healed. Your opinion is looked on with favor by some to be sure.
> >
> > A recent example of an armed citizen exercising his rights to good effect:
> >
> > http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html
> >
> > To say that a guy with a hand gun has never prevented a massacre is
> > illogical in as much as who can say what might have happened had a different
> > path been followed? In one scenario two goblins are wounded and taken to
> > jail. In another, a dozen innocents minding their own business in a internet
> > café are senselessly murdered...film at 11:00
> >
> > g
> >
> > From: Paul Rumelhart
> > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:57 AM
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
> >
> >
> > Yes, you'd have to be damn sure about your line of fire.  Firing in the
> > middle of a frenzied crowd running panicked for the exits would surely be
> > asking for trouble.  However, it's my understanding that for a while during
> > the shooting the shooter had complete control of the situation.  Anyone
> > trying to leave was shot.  Many people were playing dead in the hopes they
> > would  be passed over.  Firing on the shooter, even if he's in body armor,
> > might distract him enough that some people might have made it to the exits.
> > Body armor doesn't make you invincible, depending on the armor and the
> > caliber of the weapon used you might still have made an impact, since he'd
> > still be hit by the blunt force of the bullet.  In this situation, though,
> > you would probably also have been shot dead shortly after because he was so
> > well prepared (vest, leggings, throat protector, groin protector, and a
> > helmet with a visor).  Who knows?  Telling a loved one "when I start
> > shooting, RUN for the exit and don't stop" might have worked.
> >
> > Most other shootings like this we've heard about haven't involved such a
> > heavily armored assailant.  In fact, quite a few of them have taken place in
> > areas where gun use is often restricted, such as in schools or on university
> > campuses.  Harris and Kliebold wore T-shirts and cargo pants at Columbine.
> > A student who had happened to have smuggled a gun into the school might have
> > been able to have had a real impact on that event.
> >
> > An interesting thing to think about, in my opinion.  Apparently, that
> > opinion is not shared on this list.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > On 08/11/2012 08:13 AM, Art Deco wrote:
> >
> > It's hard to think of something more foolish than someone or ones with a
> > hand gun in a disorganized, panicky crowd trying to shoot a person with a
> > automatic weapon shielded by body armor.  How many more victims would be
> > added to the final body count?
> >
> > Didn't something like this happen in the Moscow Massacre?
> >
> > w.
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Donovan Arnold
> > <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Tom,
> >>
> >> While your wife if shopping Tri-State, you should be to. I mean come on,
> >> support your community why don't you. :)
> >>
> >> Donovan J. Arnold
> >>
> >> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
> >> To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >> Cc: "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:47 PM
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . .
> >> .
> >>
> >> You may very well be right, Sunil.
> >>
> >> It's just a habit I have acquired while in the service.  Trust those
> >> around you, but keep your powder dry.
> >>
> >> I saw the poster at Tri-State.  And, as I've said before, this is the
> >> first time I have seen such an advertisement in Moscow.  I checked a few
> >> things out, such as its website, phone number, etc. etc. etc. (Hey, I needed
> >> something to pass the time while my wife was shopping at Tri-State).
> >>
> >> The more I dug, the more red flags I found.  The more red flags I found,
> >> the more I dug.  I have so many info sources, concerning the NFT Academy,
> >> bookmarked for reference I am thinking of discarding half of 'em.
> >>
> >> Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >>
> >> Tom Hansen
> >> Moscow, Idaho
> >>
> >> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college
> >> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
> >>
> >> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I've taken such a class and in the past had a concealed weapon permit; who
> >> knows, I may again. I don't think this class is a big deal.
> >>
> >> Sunil
> >>
> >> From: thansen at moscow.com
> >> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:41:58 -0700
> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . .
> >> .
> >>
> >> The primary reason this caught my eye . . .
> >>
> >> I have lived here in Moscow for just over twenty years.  The is the FIRST
> >> time I have seen concealed-weapon classes openly advertised in town.  Couple
> >> that up with the increasing paranoia, as a result of the recent instances in
> >> Aurora (Colorado) and Milwaukee (Wisconsin), and I feel I have a right to be
> >> curious.
> >>
> >> BTW, the NFT Academy website has only been in existence since April 2012
> >> and was not publicly released until June 12, 2012 (TWO MONTHS AGO).
> >>
> >>
> >> http://fiddlerstudios.com/created-by-fs/announcing-the-national-firearms-training-academy-website/
> >>
> >> I have more info to share, concerning the NFT Academy and its website, but
> >> let's see where this thread leads.
> >>
> >> Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >>
> >> Tom Hansen
> >> Moscow, Idaho
> >>
> >> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college
> >> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
> >>
> >> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 10, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Sunil Ramalingam
> >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Something legal? The nerve! Next they'll be selling guns!
> >>
> >> Sunil
> >>
> >> From: thansen at moscow.com
> >> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:24:56 -0700
> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >>
> >> Tom Hansen
> >> Moscow, Idaho
> >>
> >> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college
> >> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
> >>
> >>
> >> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ======================================================= List services made
> >> available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
> >> since 1994. http://www.fsr.net/ mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>               http://www.fsr.net/
> >>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >>
> >>
> >> ======================================================= List services made
> >> available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
> >> since 1994. http://www.fsr.net/ mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> List services made available by First Step I
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >               http://www.fsr.net
> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> >
> >
> 
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>