[Vision2020] Godwin's Rule

Art Deco deco at moscow.com
Fri May 13 12:31:34 PDT 2011


And do you know who drank milk?

Hitler.

w.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Andreas Schou 
  To: Art Deco 
  Cc: Vision 2020 
  Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 11:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Godwin's Rule


  Wayne --

  You know who tried to ban use of Godwin's Rule?

  Hitler.

  -- ACS

  On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
  > I hope we can quell the fallacious use of the so-called Godwin's Rule by
  > showing why it is a fallacy. [Although previous attempts at rational
  > argument with the individuals invoking the rule have been basically futile.]
  >
  > Godwin's Rule states: "Whoever invokes the Nazis first loses the argument."
  >
  > Godwin's Rule basically says it is fallacious to compare anything of less
  > than horrendous consequences (if that) to the Nazis.
  >
  > Wrong.
  >
  > When A is compared to B, that means there is at least one property P in
  > which A and B are similar. For example: Rotten apples are like rotten
  > eggs. The similar property between rotten apples and rotten eggs is that
  > both can be used to throw at corrupt politicians.
  >
  > One property that the Nazi regime had was making unilateral decisions from
  > the highest level without consultation or discussion with those whom the
  > decisions adversely impacted. That property is shared by Governor Otter in
  > the megaload issue. Hence, the reference to Nazis would be
  > correctly applied.
  >
  > Comparison arguments are generally wrong when there is no property P in
  > which the compared objects share or are similar. There may be other
  > problems with particular comparison arguments, but if the comparison
  > property is shared or similar, that is not the problem.
  >
  > Like many others on this forum, I find that some of those who continually
  > boast and trumpet themselves as advocates of free expression use Godwin like
  > tactics to attempt to quell meaningful discussion and dissent.
  >
  > I again recommend the short, sweet, but hugely informative book Logic by
  > Wesley Salmon to those who are logically impaired. It can be downloaded in
  > parts from the web.
  >
  >
  > Let me repeat: Nazis are not the problem we are facing:
  >
  > Big money/oil secretly makes a deal with Governor Otter, who then dictates
  > the terms of the deal to the sheep at the IDT on matters where there are two
  > major areas of great public impact and concern and where the secret deal
  > prevented serious discussion and consideration:
  >
  > 1. Impacts of this secret deal on citizens adversely impacted by the
  > decision in many, many ways.
  >
  > 2. Impacts of enabling a project with huge adverse impacts, some of them
  > fatal, on many people, the environment, and the U.S. economy given the
  > majority interests in the tar sands projects held by China, no friend of the
  > environment, public health, or of the sense of fairness in international
  > trade, patent, or currency regulations.
  >
  > ....
  >
  > I again express my disappointment [and disgust] at Moscow public officials
  > not having the knowledge, insight into their own powers, and the guts to
  > oppose this charade, not only because of the two areas of concern expressed
  > above, but also because of the public policy considerations of allowing
  > citizens to be the roadkill of a secret steamrolling secret deal about which
  > they were prevented from participating in an open, meaningful discussion and
  > debate over matters of serious importance to them. So much for the party of
  > freedom and respect for the individual.
  >
  > Adding: if conversations with people I meet while in Moscow are any
  > indication, my disappointment and disgust are widely shared.
  >
  > Wayne A. Fox
  > 1009 Karen Lane
  > PO Box 9421
  > Moscow, ID 83843
  >
  > waf at moscow.com
  > 208 882-7975
  >
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: Joe Campbell
  > To: Paul Rumelhart
  > Cc: Vision 2020
  > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:31 AM
  > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
  > Give me a break. Does the interweb "make the rules"? No. The rules began
  > with Aristotle and the Stoics and they were perfected by folks like Boole
  > and Frege. As Wayne clearly noted, reference to the rule -- which was made
  > by you, Paul, not the interweb -- is itself a fallacy and an attempt to draw
  > folks away from the issues. Use of Godwin's Law to condemn an argument or
  > point is no better or worse than calling someone a Nazi in the first place
  > -- unless the person is in fact a Nazi!
  >
  > I now return you to the real issue, as summarized by Wayne above ...
  >
  > On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
  > wrote:
  >>
  >> I don't make the rules. Take it up with teh interwebs if you think it's
  >> stupid.
  >> I'm not really trying to win any sort of debate here, myself. Just trying
  >> to impart a little perspective. Use at your own risk. That's why Godwin's
  >> Law is remarkably effective, actually. It's a good indicator that
  >> rationality has left the building and that further debate is only useful for
  >> the lulz.
  >>
  >> Paul
  >>
  >> ________________________________
  >> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
  >> To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
  >> Cc: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>; Saundra Lund
  >> <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>; Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
  >> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:31 AM
  >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
  >>
  >> I made this point but Paul is not listening. There was no comparison.
  >>
  >> The claim that "the first person in an argument who compares the other
  >> side to the Nazis loses the debate" is just stupid. Why not just make the
  >> winner the person with the best haircut? The person with the worst argument
  >> loses the debate.
  >>
  >> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
  >>
  >> Let me get one thing straight to Mr. Rumelhart and to the rest of you
  >> lacking any sense of comprehension.
  >>
  >> My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed at Wayne Krauss.
  >>
  >> My comment, word for word, . . .
  >>
  >> "Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or
  >> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on somebody
  >> else's door."
  >>
  >> The comparison I clearly drew was between "megaloads weren't anywhere near
  >> US95 or Moscow" and Nazis knocking "on somebody else's door."
  >>
  >> If you really do feel like dragging this dead horse around with you, how
  >> about taking to your buddies at teh sandbox, ok?
  >>
  >> 'Nuff said.
  >>
  >> Now, if you will excuse me, I have four hours of Moscow Megaload Meeting
  >> videos to edit and post.
  >>
  >> Tom Hansen
  >> Moscow, Idaho
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >> On Fri, May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul Rumelhart wrote:
  >> >
  >> > Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich. All I need to know about him
  >> > is that he pressed his first wife for divorce while she was in the
  >> > hospital recovering from cancer-related surgery, not to mention
  >> > committing adultery while criticizing Clinton for doing the same thing
  >> > during the Monica Lewinski scandal.
  >> >
  >> > Anyway, the idea is that the first person in an argument who compares
  >> > the other side to the Nazis loses the debate.
  >> >
  >> > Paul
  >> >
  >> > On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra Lund wrote:
  >> >> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with that term.
  >> >>
  >> >> Since you cited the Wikipedia article ("has been invoked for the
  >> >> inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches"), then do
  >> >> you agree that hyperbolic "Godwin's law" (which you obviously accept
  >> >> since you called it) is far more appropriately applied to Nasty Newt
  >> >> Gingrich than to Tom Hansen& to Ted Moffett (in his "Saint Augustine:
  >> >> "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue" response)?
  >> >>
  >> >> Just wonderin'. . .
  >> >>
  >> >>
  >> >> Saundra Lund
  >> >> Moscow, ID
  >> >>
  >> >> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to
  >> >> do nothing.
  >> >> ~ Edmund Burke
  >> >>
  >> >> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2011 through life
  >> >> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or
  >> >> reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
  >> >> permission of the author.*****
  >> >>
  >> >>
  >> >>
  >> >> -----Original Message-----
  >> >> From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com]
  >> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:34 PM
  >> >> To: Tom Hansen
  >> >> Cc: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'; 'Donovan Arnold'
  >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
  >> >>
  >> >>
  >> >> Wow, you've just Godwin'd this thread by comparing this issue to the
  >> >> Nazis. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
  >> >>
  >> >> I'm not looking forward to having to wait an hour for these guys to
  >> >> move
  >> >> a semi-megaload down the highway, but let's try to keep some
  >> >> perspective
  >> >> here. We're talking traffic delays, possible road damage, possible
  >> >> electricity outages, and one giant megacorp putting a little more money
  >> >> in their giant coffers than they otherwise would. Besides, if we "win",
  >> >> they'll just find a more expensive way of moving these things and force
  >> >> the extra cost on to the consumers.
  >> >>
  >> >> I'm not saying you're not fighting the good fight, let's just keep it
  >> >> in
  >> >> perspective.
  >> >>
  >> >> Paul
  >> >>
  >> >> On 05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:
  >> >>> Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or
  >> >>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on
  >> >>> somebody else's door.
  >> >>
  >> >> <snip>
  >> >>
  >> >>
  >> >
  >> > =======================================================
  >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
  >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
  >> > http://www.fsr.net
  >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  >> > =======================================================
  >> >
  >>
  >>
  >> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
  >> changeand the Realist adjusts his sails."
  >>
  >> - Unknown
  >>
  >>
  >> =======================================================
  >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
  >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
  >> http://www.fsr.net
  >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  >> =======================================================
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >
  > ________________________________
  >
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  > List services made available by First Step Internet,
  > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
  > http://www.fsr.net
  > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  > =======================================================
  >
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  > List services made available by First Step Internet,
  > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
  > http://www.fsr.net
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  > =======================================================
  >
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