[Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5

Thu Oct 28 07:24:10 PDT 2010

Reggie,

We don't live in a Representative Democracy. We live in a Constitutional Representative Democracy. We are a democracy, but not an absolute democracy, we have a Constitution that protects certain individual liberties and rights above those elected officials and the majority. 

One of those individual rights and liberties is not to be unfairly deprived of their wealth and property with out due process. Our Constitution makes that process to stand the test of a 2/3 vote of the people, not a simple majority. 

I think to force people into debt is unfair without a super majority vote. I don't think going into debt is something that should be considered an everyday operation for local governments. If government officials consider a service important they should have the foresight to save for it and purchase what they need. They should not buy it on credit, use the product, and then leave future generations to pay for it with interest. 

A 2/3 vote is an important protection from people being socked with huge utility bills and property taxes from an overzealous local government that wants to spend now and leave the debt to future elected officials so they can get reelected. 

I do not want to give the City Council the authority to rack up a deficit or double my utility bill without a super majority vote. 

Donovan J. Arnold

--- On Wed, 10/27/10, Reggie Holmquist <reggieholmquist at u.boisestate.edu> wrote:

From: Reggie Holmquist <reggieholmquist at u.boisestate.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5
To: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 27, 2010, 11:10 AM

That would make sense if this was not a Representative Democracy.  Need I further elucidate this concept?  Regardless, let me stake out a middle ground.  The super-majority is appropriate for some pieces of legislation.  But, if the super-majority is required too much of the time, government will never get anything done and the country will(has?) atrophy(ied?).  The most prevalent example of this on the National scene is the GOP abuse of the filibuster.

I believe that in the case of these two amendments it is appropriate to drop the 2/3rds majority requirement.  In this time of partisan politics, 2/3rds majority is very difficult to attain on any issue, no matter how reasonable the issue.  If the city needs to borrow money, for example, in order to maintain and update infrastructure, this makes sense to me.  It is likely cheaper to maintain and update this infrastructure now than it would be to do so in the future.  I think this issue boils down to whether or not it is a good idea for the city to borrow money in order to maintain/update infrastructure.  Republican friends, tell me, why should we not allow the city to maintain/update infrastructure?

-Reggie

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 10:54 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:

According to this line of thought, you should be in favor of repealing the health care bill, since polls show over 60% of the people do not like it.
Roger

-----Original message-----
From: "Tom Hansen" thansen at moscow.com

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 12:56:10 -0700
To: "Reggie Holmquist" reggieholmquist at u.boisestate.edu
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5

> Exactly.
>
> Rule by majority is the basis for our representative republic.
>
> Do away with the super majority!
>
> The two-thirds vote is the primary reason why crucial issues are
> filibustered.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, October 25, 2010 12:46 pm, Reggie Holmquist wrote:
> > I, too, am having trouble seeing why a 2/3 vote is democracy, but a
> > majority
> > vote somehow isn't.  And since when is over 50% of the electorate a
> > "handful
> > of people?"
> >
> > -Reggie
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> That was one of my thoughts upon reading D's comments this morning.  My
> >> other thought was that D either doesn't like or doesn't understand that
> >> we
> >> live in a representative democracy.  We elect representatives to vote on
> >> things for us.  D seems to advocate either:
> >> 1.  A pure democracy.
> >> 2.  More use of ballot initiatives (ala Tim Eyman in WA, or California).
> >>
> >> I like our system of representative democracy, and prefer not to
> >> circumvent
> >> it with countless ballot initiatives.  California would seem to be a
> >> good
> >> warning as to the dangers of too many initiatives.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>   And since when is a required 2/3 yes vote democratic?  Those of us
> >>> who
> >>> taught in antiquated school buildings for 30 plus years can certainly
> >>> speak
> >>> to that....as could you who went there.
> >>>
> >>> Sue
> >>>
> >>>  *From:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 25, 2010 11:58 AM
> >>> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com ; ringoshirl <ringoshirl at moscow.com>
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5
> >>>
> >>>    "It's very limiting for these entities to need a 2/3 favorable vote
> >>> every time they need to make these purchases that they need for their
> >>> operations."-S. Ringo
> >>>
> >>> Democracy is so inconvenient isn't it?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I think it is good practice to have a 2/3 vote before incurring any
> >>> debt
> >>> and bad practice to let a handful of people rack up a debt for future
> >>> generations and others to absorb. I think if something truly is needed
> >>> and
> >>> debt needs to be incurred reasonable people will support it and it will
> >>> pass. We cannot just let hospitals go bankrupt and shut down let other
> >>> businesses, we need them.
> >>>
> >>> Again, people should not keep handing over their money and rights to an
> >>> increasingly smaller number of people that may have other interests
> >>> than
> >>> your own in mind.
> >>>
> >>> Donovan J Arnold
> >>>
> >>> --- On *Mon, 10/25/10, ringoshirl <ringoshirl at moscow.com>* wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: ringoshirl <ringoshirl at moscow.com>
> >>> Subject: [Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5
> >>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 5:32 AM
> >>>
> >>>  Visionaries:
> >>>
> >>> I support both of these.  It's very limiting for these entities to need
> >>> a
> >>> 2/3 favorable vote every time they need to make these purchases that
> >>> they
> >>> need for their operations. This does not affect Gritman.
> >>>
> >>> Shirley
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> H.J.R. 4
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> “Shall Section 3C, Article VIII, of the Constitution of the State of
> >>> Idaho
> >>> be amended to authorize
> >>>
> >>> public hospitals, ancillary to their operations and in furtherance of
> >>> health care needs in their service
> >>>
> >>> areas, to incur indebtedness or liability to purchase, contract, lease
> >>> or
> >>> construct or otherwise acquire
> >>>
> >>> facilities, equipment, technology and real property for health care
> >>> operations, provided that no ad
> >>>
> >>> valorem tax revenues shall be used for such activities?”
> >>>
> >>> Proposed Amendment to the Constitution of the State of Idaho: Section
> >>> 3C,
> >>> Article VIII
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Legislative Council’s Statement of Meaning, Purpose and Result to be
> >>> Accomplished of Proposed
> >>>
> >>> Amendment:
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> This proposed amendment will allow public hospitals to acquire
> >>> facilities,
> >>> equipment, technology and
> >>>
> >>> real property through a variety of means that aid the public hospital
> >>> operations, as long as the acquisitions
> >>>
> >>> are paid for solely from charges, rents or payments derived from the
> >>> existing or financed facilities and
> >>>
> >>> are not funded by property taxes. Under current Idaho constitutional
> >>> provisions, public hospitals, as
> >>>
> >>> subdivisions of the state of Idaho, have limited ability to incur debt
> >>> without the approval of a two-thirds
> >>>
> >>> vote at an election held for that purpose. This proposed amendment will
> >>> provide a limited alternative
> >>>
> >>> to that two-thirds vote requirement. The use of tax dollars to finance
> >>> these kinds of investments is
> >>>
> >>> prohibited.
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Statements FOR the Proposed Amendment
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> 1. The proposed amendment will allow Idaho’s public hospitals, which
> >>> are
> >>> primarily located in
> >>>
> >>> small towns and rural areas, to invest in new medical equipment,
> >>> facilities and technology to
> >>>
> >>> better meet the health care needs of patients in their communities,
> >>> strengthening Idaho’s entire
> >>>
> >>> health care system.
> >>>
> >>> 2. The proposed amendment will help give public hospitals the resources
> >>> they need to attract the
> >>>
> >>> best medical personnel, spur the economy by creating jobs, and increase
> >>> operational efficiency
> >>>
> >>> through long-term contracts.
> >>>
> >>> 3. The proposed amendment keeps in place the safeguards provided in the
> >>> Idaho Constitution in
> >>>
> >>> two ways. First, no tax dollars can be used to finance these
> >>> investments.
> >>> Second, the amendment
> >>>
> >>> strictly forbids obligating taxpayers or any state, county or other
> >>> governmental entity with these
> >>>
> >>> investments.
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Statements AGAINST the Proposed Amendment
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> 1. The existing Idaho constitutional requirement mandating a two-thirds
> >>> assent of the voters before
> >>>
> >>> a public hospital can enter into long-term debt is an important
> >>> safeguard
> >>> for all Idaho citizens.
> >>>
> >>> 2. Adoption of the proposed amendment will limit the right of voters to
> >>> approve certain debt
> >>>
> >>> incurred by the public hospitals.
> >>>
> >>> 3. Changes to the Constitution should be made only for major issues of
> >>> interest to the state or in the
> >>>
> >>> event of a constitutional crisis.
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> H.J.R. 5
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> “Shall Article VIII, of the Constitution of the State of Idaho be
> >>> amended
> >>> by the addition of a new
> >>>
> >>> Section 3E, to provide for the issuance of revenue and special facility
> >>> bonds by political subdivisions
> >>>
> >>> of the state and regional airport authorities as defined by law, if
> >>> operating an airport to acquire,
> >>>
> >>> construct, install, and equip land, facilities, buildings, projects or
> >>> other property, which are hereby
> >>>
> >>> deemed to be for a public purpose, to be financed for, or to be leased,
> >>> sold or otherwise disposed of
> >>>
> >>> to persons, associations or corporations, or to be held by the
> >>> subdivision
> >>> or regional airport authority,
> >>>
> >>> and may in the manner prescribed by law issue revenue and special
> >>> facility
> >>> bonds to finance the costs
> >>>
> >>> thereof; provided that any such bonds shall be payable solely from
> >>> fees,
> >>> charges, rents, payments,
> >>>
> >>> grants, or any other revenues derived from the airport or any of its
> >>> facilities, structures, systems, or
> >>>
> >>> projects, or from any land, facilities, buildings, projects or other
> >>> property financed by such bonds,
> >>>
> >>> and shall not be secured by the full faith and credit or the taxing
> >>> power
> >>> of the subdivision or regional
> >>>
> >>> airport authority?”
> >>>
> >>> Proposed Amendment to the Constitution of the State of Idaho: New
> >>> Section
> >>> 3E, Article VIII
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Legislative Council’s Statement of Meaning, Purpose and Result to be
> >>> Accomplished of Proposed
> >>>
> >>> Amendment:
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Currently, local governmental entities that operate airports and
> >>> regional
> >>> airport authorities cannot
> >>>
> >>> incur indebtedness without the approval of a two-thirds vote at an
> >>> election held for that purpose. This
> >>>
> >>> proposed amendment will allow local governmental entities that operate
> >>> airports and regional airport
> >>>
> >>> authorities to issue revenue and special facility bonds to acquire,
> >>> construct, install and equip land,
> >>>
> >>> facilities, buildings, projects or other property. Voter approval will
> >>> not
> >>> be required to incur such
> >>>
> >>> indebtedness, as long as the bonds are paid for by fees, charges,
> >>> rents,
> >>> payments, grants or other
> >>>
> >>> revenues derived from the airport or its facilities. The use of tax
> >>> dollars to repay such bonds is
> >>>
> >>> prohibited.
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Statements FOR the Proposed Amendment
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> 1. Public airports should have the ready ability to construct needed
> >>> facilities, such as terminals,
> >>>
> >>> runways, parking structures and hangars, which provide travelers with
> >>> better services and
> >>>
> >>> accommodations and attract industries to Idaho as long as the users pay
> >>> for these facilities.
> >>>
> >>> 2. Political subdivisions and regional airport authorities need the
> >>> ability to efficiently address
> >>>
> >>> operational needs as they arise. Adoption of this amendment will
> >>> provide
> >>> this ability without the
> >>>
> >>> use of tax dollars to repay any debt or liability incurred.
> >>>
> >>> 3. The inability of political subdivisions and regional airport
> >>> authorities to incur indebtedness and
> >>>
> >>> liability without voter approval has been a contributing factor in
> >>> driving
> >>> regional aviation-related
> >>>
> >>> industries to conduct business in neighboring states. If the proposed
> >>> amendment is not adopted,
> >>>
> >>> Idaho could continue to lose similar economic development
> >>> opportunities.
> >>>
> >>> 4. Public airports are a vital part of economic development and
> >>> commerce
> >>> in the state of Idaho. In
> >>>
> >>> 2009, aviation contributed an estimated $2.1 billion to Idaho’s
> >>> economy.
> >>> Properties and facilities
> >>>
> >>> funded by special facility bonds will attract and expand industries,
> >>> such
> >>> as maintenance, manu
> >>>
> >>> facturing
> >>>
> >>> and cargo operations, which will create new jobs and foster economic
> >>> development in
> >>>
> >>> Idaho. Modern and efficient airports are essential to Idaho’s
> >>> prosperity.
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> Statements AGAINST the Proposed Amendment (H.J.R. 5 Continued)
> >>>
> >>> *
> >>>
> >>> 1. The existing Idaho constitutional requirement mandating a two-thirds
> >>> assent of the voters before
> >>>
> >>> a political subdivision or regional airport authority can incur debt is
> >>> an
> >>> important safeguard for
> >>>
> >>> all Idaho citizens.
> >>>
> >>> 2. Adoption of the proposed amendment will allow political subdivisions
> >>> and regional airport
> >>>
> >>> authorities to acquire, construct, install and equip land, facilities,
> >>> buildings and projects that are
> >>>
> >>> not specifically limited to airport operations.
> >>>
> >>> 3. Buildings and land owned by the government are not taxed and
> >>> therefore
> >>> provide no revenues to
> >>>
> >>> schools, cities, counties or other levying authorities. Adoption of the
> >>> proposed amendment could
> >>>
> >>> result in an increase in property exempt from taxation.
> >>>
> >>> 4. Changes to the Constitution should be made only for major issues of
> >>> interest to the entire state
> >>>
> >>> or in the event of a constitutional crisis.
> >>>
> >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> >>>
> >>> =======================================================
> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>                http://www.fsr.net
> >>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
> >>> =======================================================
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  ------------------------------
> >>> =======================================================
> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>                http://www.fsr.net
> >>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> =======================================================
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> =======================================================
> >>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>               http://www.fsr.net
> >>>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> =======================================================
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>               http://www.fsr.net
> >>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what
> > the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be
> > replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another
> > theory which states that this has already happened.
> >
> > Douglas Adams
> > =======================================================
> >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >                http://www.fsr.net
> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
>
>
> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change
> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>
> - Unknown
>
>
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>

-- 
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. 

Douglas Adams

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet, 
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
               http://www.fsr.net                       
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

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