[Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5
Tom Hansen
thansen at moscow.com
Thu Oct 28 07:22:52 PDT 2010
http://www.moscowcares.com/Videos/1984_1954.htm
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
On Thu, October 28, 2010 7:09 am, Joe Campbell wrote:
> Are you writing the sequel to 1984?
>
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:58 AM, Donovan Arnold <
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe,
>>
>> It makes total sense. A 2/3 majority favors the minority who have
>> something to lose. A 51% vote does not.
>>
>> Donovan J. Arnold
>>
>>
>> --- On *Tue, 10/26/10, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5
>> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Reggie Holmquist" <
>> reggieholmquist at u.boisestate.edu>
>> Date: Tuesday, October 26, 2010, 7:23 AM
>>
>> This makes no sense. Is it better when 66.7% steal from the other 33.3%?
>> How are the 33.3% "protected" by this process?
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 6:31 AM, Donovan Arnold <
>> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> A super majority is the only thing that keeps 51% of the people from
>> stealing from the other 49%. It is what protects individual rights of
>> minorities in this country, and keeps Constitutions from changing back
>> and
>> forth every other year.
>>
>> Donovan J. Arnold
>>
>> --- On *Mon, 10/25/10, Tom Hansen
>> <thansen at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com>
>> >* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Tom Hansen
>> <thansen at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com>>
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5
>> To: "Reggie Holmquist"
>> <reggieholmquist at u.boisestate.edu<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reggieholmquist@u.boisestate.edu>
>> >
>> Cc:
>> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>,
>> "Donovan Arnold"
>> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
>> >
>> Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 12:56 PM
>>
>>
>> Exactly.
>>
>> Rule by majority is the basis for our representative republic.
>>
>> Do away with the super majority!
>>
>> The two-thirds vote is the primary reason why crucial issues are
>> filibustered.
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, October 25, 2010 12:46 pm, Reggie Holmquist wrote:
>> > I, too, am having trouble seeing why a 2/3 vote is democracy, but a
>> > majority
>> > vote somehow isn't. And since when is over 50% of the electorate a
>> > "handful
>> > of people?"
>> >
>> > -Reggie
>> >
>> > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Darrell Keim
>> <keim153 at gmail.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keim153@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> That was one of my thoughts upon reading D's comments this morning.
>> My
>> >> other thought was that D either doesn't like or doesn't understand
>> that
>> >> we
>> >> live in a representative democracy. We elect representatives to vote
>> on
>> >> things for us. D seems to advocate either:
>> >> 1. A pure democracy.
>> >> 2. More use of ballot initiatives (ala Tim Eyman in WA, or
>> California).
>> >>
>> >> I like our system of representative democracy, and prefer not to
>> >> circumvent
>> >> it with countless ballot initiatives. California would seem to be a
>> >> good
>> >> warning as to the dangers of too many initiatives.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Sue Hovey
>> <suehovey at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=suehovey@moscow.com>>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> And since when is a required 2/3 yes vote democratic? Those of us
>> >>> who
>> >>> taught in antiquated school buildings for 30 plus years can
>> certainly
>> >>> speak
>> >>> to that....as could you who went there.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sue
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* Donovan Arnold
>> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
>> >
>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 25, 2010 11:58 AM
>> >>> *To:*
>> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>;
>> ringoshirl <
>> ringoshirl at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ringoshirl@moscow.com>
>> >
>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5
>> >>>
>> >>> "It's very limiting for these entities to need a 2/3 favorable
>> vote
>> >>> every time they need to make these purchases that they need for
>> their
>> >>> operations."-S. Ringo
>> >>>
>> >>> Democracy is so inconvenient isn't it?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I think it is good practice to have a 2/3 vote before incurring any
>> >>> debt
>> >>> and bad practice to let a handful of people rack up a debt for
>> future
>> >>> generations and others to absorb. I think if something truly is
>> needed
>> >>> and
>> >>> debt needs to be incurred reasonable people will support it and it
>> will
>> >>> pass. We cannot just let hospitals go bankrupt and shut down let
>> other
>> >>> businesses, we need them.
>> >>>
>> >>> Again, people should not keep handing over their money and rights to
>> an
>> >>> increasingly smaller number of people that may have other interests
>> >>> than
>> >>> your own in mind.
>> >>>
>> >>> Donovan J Arnold
>> >>>
>> >>> --- On *Mon, 10/25/10, ringoshirl
>> <ringoshirl at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ringoshirl@moscow.com>>*
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> From: ringoshirl
>> <ringoshirl at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ringoshirl@moscow.com>
>> >
>> >>> Subject: [Vision2020] HJR 4 and 5
>> >>> To:
>> vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com>
>> >>> Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 5:32 AM
>> >>>
>> >>> Visionaries:
>> >>>
>> >>> I support both of these. It's very limiting for these entities to
>> need
>> >>> a
>> >>> 2/3 favorable vote every time they need to make these purchases that
>> >>> they
>> >>> need for their operations. This does not affect Gritman.
>> >>>
>> >>> Shirley
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> H.J.R. 4
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> “Shall Section 3C, Article VIII, of the Constitution of the State of
>> >>> Idaho
>> >>> be amended to authorize
>> >>>
>> >>> public hospitals, ancillary to their operations and in furtherance
>> of
>> >>> health care needs in their service
>> >>>
>> >>> areas, to incur indebtedness or liability to purchase, contract,
>> lease
>> >>> or
>> >>> construct or otherwise acquire
>> >>>
>> >>> facilities, equipment, technology and real property for health care
>> >>> operations, provided that no ad
>> >>>
>> >>> valorem tax revenues shall be used for such activities?”
>> >>>
>> >>> Proposed Amendment to the Constitution of the State of Idaho:
>> Section
>> >>> 3C,
>> >>> Article VIII
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> Legislative Council’s Statement of Meaning, Purpose and Result to be
>> >>> Accomplished of Proposed
>> >>>
>> >>> Amendment:
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> This proposed amendment will allow public hospitals to acquire
>> >>> facilities,
>> >>> equipment, technology and
>> >>>
>> >>> real property through a variety of means that aid the public
>> hospital
>> >>> operations, as long as the acquisitions
>> >>>
>> >>> are paid for solely from charges, rents or payments derived from the
>> >>> existing or financed facilities and
>> >>>
>> >>> are not funded by property taxes. Under current Idaho constitutional
>> >>> provisions, public hospitals, as
>> >>>
>> >>> subdivisions of the state of Idaho, have limited ability to incur
>> debt
>> >>> without the approval of a two-thirds
>> >>>
>> >>> vote at an election held for that purpose. This proposed amendment
>> will
>> >>> provide a limited alternative
>> >>>
>> >>> to that two-thirds vote requirement. The use of tax dollars to
>> finance
>> >>> these kinds of investments is
>> >>>
>> >>> prohibited.
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> Statements FOR the Proposed Amendment
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> 1. The proposed amendment will allow Idaho’s public hospitals, which
>> >>> are
>> >>> primarily located in
>> >>>
>> >>> small towns and rural areas, to invest in new medical equipment,
>> >>> facilities and technology to
>> >>>
>> >>> better meet the health care needs of patients in their communities,
>> >>> strengthening Idaho’s entire
>> >>>
>> >>> health care system.
>> >>>
>> >>> 2. The proposed amendment will help give public hospitals the
>> resources
>> >>> they need to attract the
>> >>>
>> >>> best medical personnel, spur the economy by creating jobs, and
>> increase
>> >>> operational efficiency
>> >>>
>> >>> through long-term contracts.
>> >>>
>> >>> 3. The proposed amendment keeps in place the safeguards provided in
>> the
>> >>> Idaho Constitution in
>> >>>
>> >>> two ways. First, no tax dollars can be used to finance these
>> >>> investments.
>> >>> Second, the amendment
>> >>>
>> >>> strictly forbids obligating taxpayers or any state, county or other
>> >>> governmental entity with these
>> >>>
>> >>> investments.
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> Statements AGAINST the Proposed Amendment
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> 1. The existing Idaho constitutional requirement mandating a
>> two-thirds
>> >>> assent of the voters before
>> >>>
>> >>> a public hospital can enter into long-term debt is an important
>> >>> safeguard
>> >>> for all Idaho citizens.
>> >>>
>> >>> 2. Adoption of the proposed amendment will limit the right of voters
>> to
>> >>> approve certain debt
>> >>>
>> >>> incurred by the public hospitals.
>> >>>
>> >>> 3. Changes to the Constitution should be made only for major issues
>> of
>> >>> interest to the state or in the
>> >>>
>> >>> event of a constitutional crisis.
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> H.J.R. 5
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> “Shall Article VIII, of the Constitution of the State of Idaho be
>> >>> amended
>> >>> by the addition of a new
>> >>>
>> >>> Section 3E, to provide for the issuance of revenue and special
>> facility
>> >>> bonds by political subdivisions
>> >>>
>> >>> of the state and regional airport authorities as defined by law, if
>> >>> operating an airport to acquire,
>> >>>
>> >>> construct, install, and equip land, facilities, buildings, projects
>> or
>> >>> other property, which are hereby
>> >>>
>> >>> deemed to be for a public purpose, to be financed for, or to be
>> leased,
>> >>> sold or otherwise disposed of
>> >>>
>> >>> to persons, associations or corporations, or to be held by the
>> >>> subdivision
>> >>> or regional airport authority,
>> >>>
>> >>> and may in the manner prescribed by law issue revenue and special
>> >>> facility
>> >>> bonds to finance the costs
>> >>>
>> >>> thereof; provided that any such bonds shall be payable solely from
>> >>> fees,
>> >>> charges, rents, payments,
>> >>>
>> >>> grants, or any other revenues derived from the airport or any of its
>> >>> facilities, structures, systems, or
>> >>>
>> >>> projects, or from any land, facilities, buildings, projects or other
>> >>> property financed by such bonds,
>> >>>
>> >>> and shall not be secured by the full faith and credit or the taxing
>> >>> power
>> >>> of the subdivision or regional
>> >>>
>> >>> airport authority?”
>> >>>
>> >>> Proposed Amendment to the Constitution of the State of Idaho: New
>> >>> Section
>> >>> 3E, Article VIII
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> Legislative Council’s Statement of Meaning, Purpose and Result to be
>> >>> Accomplished of Proposed
>> >>>
>> >>> Amendment:
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> Currently, local governmental entities that operate airports and
>> >>> regional
>> >>> airport authorities cannot
>> >>>
>> >>> incur indebtedness without the approval of a two-thirds vote at an
>> >>> election held for that purpose. This
>> >>>
>> >>> proposed amendment will allow local governmental entities that
>> operate
>> >>> airports and regional airport
>> >>>
>> >>> authorities to issue revenue and special facility bonds to acquire,
>> >>> construct, install and equip land,
>> >>>
>> >>> facilities, buildings, projects or other property. Voter approval
>> will
>> >>> not
>> >>> be required to incur such
>> >>>
>> >>> indebtedness, as long as the bonds are paid for by fees, charges,
>> >>> rents,
>> >>> payments, grants or other
>> >>>
>> >>> revenues derived from the airport or its facilities. The use of tax
>> >>> dollars to repay such bonds is
>> >>>
>> >>> prohibited.
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> Statements FOR the Proposed Amendment
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> 1. Public airports should have the ready ability to construct needed
>> >>> facilities, such as terminals,
>> >>>
>> >>> runways, parking structures and hangars, which provide travelers
>> with
>> >>> better services and
>> >>>
>> >>> accommodations and attract industries to Idaho as long as the users
>> pay
>> >>> for these facilities.
>> >>>
>> >>> 2. Political subdivisions and regional airport authorities need the
>> >>> ability to efficiently address
>> >>>
>> >>> operational needs as they arise. Adoption of this amendment will
>> >>> provide
>> >>> this ability without the
>> >>>
>> >>> use of tax dollars to repay any debt or liability incurred.
>> >>>
>> >>> 3. The inability of political subdivisions and regional airport
>> >>> authorities to incur indebtedness and
>> >>>
>> >>> liability without voter approval has been a contributing factor in
>> >>> driving
>> >>> regional aviation-related
>> >>>
>> >>> industries to conduct business in neighboring states. If the
>> proposed
>> >>> amendment is not adopted,
>> >>>
>> >>> Idaho could continue to lose similar economic development
>> >>> opportunities.
>> >>>
>> >>> 4. Public airports are a vital part of economic development and
>> >>> commerce
>> >>> in the state of Idaho. In
>> >>>
>> >>> 2009, aviation contributed an estimated $2.1 billion to Idaho’s
>> >>> economy.
>> >>> Properties and facilities
>> >>>
>> >>> funded by special facility bonds will attract and expand industries,
>> >>> such
>> >>> as maintenance, manu
>> >>>
>> >>> facturing
>> >>>
>> >>> and cargo operations, which will create new jobs and foster economic
>> >>> development in
>> >>>
>> >>> Idaho. Modern and efficient airports are essential to Idaho’s
>> >>> prosperity.
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> Statements AGAINST the Proposed Amendment (H.J.R. 5 Continued)
>> >>>
>> >>> *
>> >>>
>> >>> 1. The existing Idaho constitutional requirement mandating a
>> two-thirds
>> >>> assent of the voters before
>> >>>
>> >>> a political subdivision or regional airport authority can incur debt
>> is
>> >>> an
>> >>> important safeguard for
>> >>>
>> >>> all Idaho citizens.
>> >>>
>> >>> 2. Adoption of the proposed amendment will allow political
>> subdivisions
>> >>> and regional airport
>> >>>
>> >>> authorities to acquire, construct, install and equip land,
>> facilities,
>> >>> buildings and projects that are
>> >>>
>> >>> not specifically limited to airport operations.
>> >>>
>> >>> 3. Buildings and land owned by the government are not taxed and
>> >>> therefore
>> >>> provide no revenues to
>> >>>
>> >>> schools, cities, counties or other levying authorities. Adoption of
>> the
>> >>> proposed amendment could
>> >>>
>> >>> result in an increase in property exempt from taxation.
>> >>>
>> >>> 4. Changes to the Constitution should be made only for major issues
>> of
>> >>> interest to the entire state
>> >>>
>> >>> or in the event of a constitutional crisis.
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>> >>>
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >>> http://www.fsr.net
>> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
>> <http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >>> http://www.fsr.net
>> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >>> http://www.fsr.net
>> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
>> >>> =======================================================
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> =======================================================
>> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >> http://www.fsr.net
>> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
>> >> =======================================================
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly
>> what
>> > the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
>> and
>> be
>> > replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is
>> another
>> > theory which states that this has already happened.
>> >
>> > Douglas Adams
>> > =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
>> > =======================================================
>>
>>
>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
>> change
>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>>
>> - Unknown
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com<http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com>
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change
and the Realist adjusts his sails."
- Unknown
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