[Vision2020] Postcardgate
the lockshop
lockshop at pull.twcbc.com
Sun Oct 24 11:55:52 PDT 2010
"Rants against religions?" You better erase the mark on your calendar, you've obviously been reading somebody else.
It's funny, You and several of your pals on the list have repeatedly accused me of being a member/spokesman of a prominent local congregation. Perhaps you should make up your mind.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Saundra Lund
To: 'Gary Crabtree' ; 'Art Deco' ; 'Vision 2020'
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Postcardgate
I'll start out by agreeing with Gary Crabtree's statement:
"I believe that faith and public service can and do co-exist."
I've marked the day on my calendar J
Nonetheless, I find your various rants against other religions - and no religion - disingenuous at best.
To make your point, you're wanting to paint all religions with broad generalizations that don't apply to many, while the extremism Knerr preaches is very specific and targets not only virtually all other Christian and non-Christian religious beliefs he doesn't share, but all those with whose politics he doesn't agree. And, then he spins everything into "God hates America." It's truly shameful, and why on earth anyone who values our Constitutional separation of church & state - IOW, anyone who isn't interested in theocracy - would want to vote for a candidate who shares the belief that "God hates America" is inexplicable, pure & simple.
I'll also add that throughout my decades on this earth, I've been blessed to attend & visit many, many houses of worship of various faiths, and I have never -- and I do mean never ever -- attended a church where politics and ugly & hateful insults directed at politicians and other religions came from the pulpit in an isolated incident, let alone on a regular basis as happens at Freeze Community Church.
Something about that particular tone, or the refusal to respect the separation of church & state, certainly seems to appeal to Bouma. After all, it's not like there's any shortage of churches on the Palouse, and if Bouma objected to Knerr's regular fusion of politics and religion in sermons, there are scores of Christian churches in this area where that doesn't happen. The fact that he's continued to attend - and even give sermons - at such a church speaks volumes to any thinking person.
Finally, inspired by Joe Campbell's updating of Knerr's screed against the LDS church, I'll finish with a couple of quotes from Gary Crabtree when he was arguing the opposite of what's he's now trying to sell, and updated for candidate Bouma.
This topic goes back to giving an indication of Bouma's judgment and character. Let's face it, the guy's resume is extraordinarily thin and it's next to impossible to judge him on his accomplishments, as few as there are. There is no question but what the man talks a good game and as near as I can tell that is his only real qualification. Talk, as they say is cheap.
I know that the "great minds" on this list dismiss questioning the company one keeps as a form of ad holmium attack but that old familiar chestnut concerning laying down with dogs wouldn't have endured the way it has were there not a serious dose of truth in it.
AND
Bouma's affiliation with his nut ball pastor and mentor, Lloyd Knerr and his crackpot hate all other religions/hate/Democrats/hate America church. Have you squared Knerr's rhetoric with a potential senator of all the people in District 6, not just the ones covered by his mentors questionable theology?
Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.
~ Edmund Burke
***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2010 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Gary Crabtree
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 6:20 PM
To: Art Deco; Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Postcardgate
Oh Wayne, always the opaque assertion. I guess being vague and a bit cryptic
wins out over plain speech by virtue of it making it harder for you to be fact checked.
Since the religious leanings of all the candidates is of such vital importance to you, perhaps you would care to enlighten me as to Mr. Schmidt's. He certainly does not seem to be inclined to make it plain via his campaign literature or his web site bio. On both weak bromides rule the day.
If it turns out that he's Catholic, lets rake him over the coals regarding abortion, contraception, and the churches position on homosexuals. Ditto if he's any flavor of Protestant. If he's Mormon, take him to task for plural marriage and the promotion of blacks in church hierarchy. If he's Jewish make him answer for the perceived failings of Israel, penile mutilation, and the shrimp, bacon, and cheeseburger superstition. Should he be Buddhist make him explain those silly rainbow flags and the controversy over the ordination of nuns. Should he turn out to be Hindu, ridicule him for the caste system and cow worship. If he's an atheist, have him explain where an inalienable right might come from and, force him to repudiate Peter Singer and his insane desire to get busy with domesticated animals and a willingness to abort toddlers and the infirm. Don't even get me started should he turn out to be a follower of Islam, Wicca, or Scientology.
Any faith or set of beliefs can be made to seem strange or extreme. I believe that faith and public service can and do co-exist. I also believe that if you imagine that the beneficiary of your financial largess doesn't have their opinions colored by their religious beliefs, you are almost certainly mistaken. That or the professed beliefs are not as strong as you or they imagine.
g
From: Art Deco
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 9:37 AM
To: Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Postcardgate
As usual you are wrong, as a tiny bit of Googling would have shown.
Not only do I vote for and endorse, but I financially support a local candidate with strong religious beliefs.
The difference between that candidate and Bouma is that as far as I can tell, the candidate at issue bases their political positions on carefully considered terrestrial information. To the extent that their religious values agree with my secular values, these values for this candidate are based on terrestrial considerations as well as his religious convictions. This candidate is also tolerant of religious views that conflict their own and able to appreciate the strengths found in other religious views. The candidate is not a "one way" bigot as is Bouma.
I am a believer in rigid separation of church and state. Bouma seeks to greatly dismantle that barrier.
During the primary, it became obvious to me that Bouma and his associates not only wish to dismantle the church-state barrier, but, in fact, have violated the tax laws by their advocacy at the pulpit of their political views. Also, by lying to a local pastor, they flummoxed him into providing a prayer room during the primary election day which prayed only for Bouma and candidates with similar religious views -- another violation of tax exemption laws. That is why I have concentrated on Bouma.
Please do not misunderstand. Bouma and his associates are free to advocate anything they want from the pulpit subject to the usual free expression exclusions. However, if they choose to do that, then, by law, they must pay taxes for that privilege like most of the rest of do.
W.
----- Original Message -----
From: the lockshop
To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Postcardgate
Suprisingly, you seem to have missed the point of my post. You state repeatedly how important it is to you to know "every candidates" religious positons and how they would affect their political positions and yet the questions are only put to a very select few. (one actually) Forgive me but I suspect that having religious convictions of any type is a major disqualifier for you and that the answers to any questions you may pose are simply additional opportunities to poor mouth a believing community member who might have the questionable judgement, in your view, to want to run for elected office.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Deco
To: Vision 2020
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Postcardgate
For one reason, as far as I know, Schmidt does not attend and occasionally preach in a church which mixes religion and politics as Bouma does (as you can see from the quotes below). Another reason: Bouma has been asked in a public forum about his religious beliefs and their relations to his political beliefs -- he refused to answer claiming the question out of bounds.
Every candidate ought tell us what their political positions are and why they hold those positions including their religious reasons, if any. So far as I know no one has asked Schmidt these questions. Perhaps someone should; perhaps you.
In a previous post, I opined that it is not only important for a candidate to state his positions, but why she/he believes them. It is important to understand how a candidate arrives at his conclusions in order to judge in part his desirability and/or fitness for office.
http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2010-October/072051.html
W.
If the quotes below do not show you about mixing religion and politics in a way prohibited by law for non-profit religious organizations, acts of which Bouma is at least an accessory to, then go to www.freezechurch.org and do a Google site search using the single word "Obama"
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Crabtree
To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Postcardgate
"What are Bouma's religious beliefs, how do they affect his political opinions, how do they affect his attitude toward certain classes of voters (gays and Mormons, e.g.), and why does he not have the honesty and courage to reveal and to discuss how his religious beliefs determine and affect his political positions?"
Why is this question only of interest when it comes to Mr. Bouma? What about Mr. Schmidt's religious beliefs? (should he happen to have any, In my perusal of his campaign material I notice he hasn't "the honesty and courage to reveal and discuss" his religious beliefs or lack there of) Has his Pastor, Priest, Rabbi, or coven oberpriesterin ever made a comment that could have raised the odd eye brow? If he's an atheist, shouldn't he be called upon to answer for or repudiate the lunacy that has poured forth from the likes of Goldman, Chomsky, and Singer? If not, why? Does the fact that there is a D following his name on the ballot excuse him from the level of scrutiny that you seem to believe is appropriate for others?
g
From: Art Deco
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:28 PM
To: Vision 2020
Subject: [Vision2020] Postcardgate
Postcardgate
Before saying some not-well-organized-but-need-to-be-said things below, please let me make three obvious statements.
1. I do not know who sent the infamous postcards. (I did not get one, but that may be due to a post office error combined with another factor if one was sent to my rural address.) There are many rumors, allegations, and a few facts flying about this incident. It is too early to label this incident a hoax, or if it is a hoax, what kind. I believe the local press has been premature and irresponsible in labeling the incident a hoax at first blush.
2. I do not approve or condone anonymous/forged campaign material (if this is what it is) even when that material may contain statements, though inflammatory, at least some of which appear to be true. I hope the perpetrator(s) is/are caught and exposed before the election.
3. If Bouma's religious beliefs reflect the way he thinks about political issues (and they appear to do so) then it is not only dishonest but cowardly for him not to reveal his religious beliefs and how they influence his political positions. Voters ought not be tricked into buying a pig in a poke. A previous post on this subject:
http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2010-October/072051.html
Investigation
I hope that the sheriff's office is going to an objective, thorough job investigating Postcardgate. I hope this is not going to be another Sitler style whitewash and cover-up motivated in part by the sheriff's religious values rather than his professional duties.
There is no reason to except the so-called victim, his associates, and other organizations supporting his candidacy from suspicion. Bouma appears to be reaping benefit from the incident as it is being used both to raise money and sympathy for him. Some of the material appearing on the postcard appeared on Vision 2020 and other places before the mailings occurred. The postcard may have been an attempt to set a backfire.
This is a case where the investigation could be greatly expedited and reach the correct result if the county prosecutor calls for and uses a Magistrate's Inquiry. Although some people, especially those belonging to certain churches/cults who believe in Covenantal Dishonesty (it's alright to lie, even under oath, if it appears to promote God's will), there may be some people of good conscience that will tell the truth under oath regardless.
I don't know what the focus of the investigation is, but I hope that no time is spent on copyright violations given the free use provisions of the copyright laws.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
For one thing it appears that Bouma has not suffered a pecuniary loss, but has actually reaped a pecuniary benefit. For another, campaign material freely used and distributed by a candidate is part of political expression/debate process and is generally exempt from copyright protection.
The postcards appeared to be printed on either a home printer or a commercial printer using a mail merge. If you Google
"laser printer" identification
, for example, you will find that for some printers there is a way to not only identify the kind/brand-name of the printer a document was printed on, but also in some cases, the actual individual printer.
Almost all of us hope that all who have actual evidence (not just fanciful speculation) will communicate it to the LCSD as quickly as possible.
Real Issue
Although the stealth postcards, no matter who produced and sent them, may be a underhanded, possibly criminal trick, a much more important issue is at stake.
The anonymous nature of the postcard and the kneejerk, panic-stricken, overly irrational response to it should not be allowed to act as a clever smokescreen. The issue here is Bouma's ability, desirability, and fitness to serve as a state senator.
What are Bouma's religious beliefs, how do they affect his political opinions, how do they affect his attitude toward certain classes of voters (gays and Mormons, e.g.), and why does he not have the honesty and courage to reveal and to discuss how his religious beliefs determine and affect his political positions?
Here are some direct quotes from Lloyd Knerr, pastor of Freeze Church, which Bouma attends and has given sermons.
_____________________________________
The religions that parade under the banner of Christianity are innumerable. I can't help but think of Mitt Romney standing in front of the cameras the other day and saying, "Absolutely LDS are Christians. We're as much Christian as any other main-stream denomination. We believe that salvation is only through Jesus Christ and we worship Him as our Lord."
After Ron Huckabee's comment this week about Mormons believing that Jesus and Satan were brothers, I had to read through the chapter on Mormonism in Kingdom of the Cults. Not only do they indeed believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers, they deny the Virgin Birth, the sufficiency of Christ's death on the cross to atone for all sins and such things as God was a man once just as we are. He achieved such a state of holiness in his flesh that he was rewarded by becoming the god of this planet. He showed up here as Adam and later impregnated Mary, who conceived and produced Jesus. He also had a few kids with the other Mary and her sister Martha.
He [Paul] says, 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth - men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone. NIV Did you ever wonder why the J.W.s and the Mormons and their ilk always do their legwork in the middle of the day? It's because the women are normally home alone. Every family that I personally know of who has been indoctrinated by one of these groups has been because the wife was first deceived.
>>
Glenn Beck is a Mormon.
I want to take a couple of minutes and give you a little information on Mormonism and then decide if you want Beck's god to take back America.
The Mormon god was once a human being just like you or I.
He was born of a human man and woman on a distant star called, "Kolon."
His parents gave him the name, "Elohim."
He lives, with his thousands of wives, on this star, "Kolon."
He supposedly lived such a righteous, Mormon life that he was elevated to become the god of his own world, which was to be called "Earth."
This god and his wives produced millions of spirit children.
All of the gods of the heavenly realms gathered together to decide which of "Elohim's" children would be chosen to become the savior of Elohim's planet called Earth.
It boiled down to his two eldest sons, Jesus and Lucifer.
Yes, that Lucifer.
Each gave his campaign speech and Jesus was chosen.
Lucifer was so angry that he took 1/3 of all the spirit population of Kolon to go to earth with him to oppose his brother Jesus.
These became his demons.
Those who remained neutral in the battle between Jesus and Satan were cursed to be born with black skin.
This is the Mormon explanation for the negro race.
Those good, Mormon spirits who supported Jesus would be born with white skin.
Elohim and one of his many spirit wives came to earth and begot Adam and Eve.
Many years later, Elohim came to earth and had sex with the Virgin Mary, who begot Jesus in human form to give his spirit a body.
The Mormons teach that Jesus took three wives, Mary, Martha and Mary Magdalene and fathered many children with them.
After Jesus' death and resurrection, He came to the Americas and evangelized the Indians.
I could go on and on about the blasphemy and the heresy of the Mormon religion, but suffice it to say that when Glenn Beck tells you that you serve the same god that he does, he's a liar.
I am appalled at the number of Christians who follow this false prophet.
He believes that the Constitution of the United States was directly inspired by God and elevates it even above scripture.
He believes that the Mormon church was sent to earth to protect that Constitution.
He believes that the salvation of America and the preservation of our Constitution will only come from the Mormon church.
If you think a man's religion doesn't make any difference, the day will come when you will realize that you have been sadly mistaken.
I would guess that 90% of estimated half a million people who attended that rally in D.C. would call themselves Christian.
If that's true, the church in America today is in greater danger than I ever believed.
Solomon was right; there's nothing new in this.
Satan and his minions have been rebelling against the true God since the very beginning and they will all ultimately fail.
He has been sending his prophets into the world since day one.
>>
To support homosexual marriage is to call God a liar. Any church that proclaims different is a church of Satan. Any person who condones homosexual marriage is anti-God and anti-Christ.
______________________________
The above crackpot quotes are just a few of what you will find at the Freeze Church website. http://freezechurch.org/home.html
For more information go to the church website and do a site Google search on "abortion"
Repeat: Freeze Church is the Church Bouma attends and has given sermons.
[Sidebar: The so-called Reverend Lloyd Knerr said of Vision 2020 in the LMT:
Knerr said. "And they take them out of context, twist the wording a little bit, and make it sound like we're all a bunch of narrow-minded bigots spewing hate and venom at the Freeze Church."
I hope the normal, mentally healthy reader can appreciate the extreme irony of Knerr's statement to the sympathetic reporter from the LMT, especially the "bigots spewing hate and venon (sic)" part. I also hope that the normal, mentally healthy reader can see the disconnection between Knerr's sermons and his statements to the LMT. I greatly fear that Knerr does not understand what the words "liar" or "give false testimony" means - not a trait one would generally admire in a pastor.]
Does candidate Bouma believe the religious claims of his pastor, the pastor of a church in which Bouma himself sometimes preaches?
Does Bouma hold Mormons and gays in the same kind of hateful contempt as his Pastor Knerr does?
Bouma, like all the rest of us, is free to believe in, act upon, and defend his religious credo. His First Amendment rights are not in dispute.
What is in dispute is:
1. What exactly are Bouma's religious beliefs, how does justify belief in them, and how will these beliefs influence his actions, stands, and votes as a state senator representing a plurality of Latah County which most likely do not agree with these beliefs, and some of whom would find themselves satanized by Bouma?
2. If Bouma is unwilling to answer the above question, then does such dishonesty, stealth, and cowardice render him unfit for public office.
For a number of obvious reasons I personally do want someone who is dishonest and cowardly to represent me in the state legislature no matter what their views are.
Wayne A. Fox
1009 Karen Lane
PO Box 9421
Moscow, ID 83843
waf at moscow.com
208 882-7975
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