[Vision2020] Postcardgate [LONG]

[Joe Campbell]

Accidentally sent this to Deb only.

> Nice post, Deb. Thanks for it!
>
> I hope folks realize that my post was "joke." I just cut-and-pasted
> the sermon from Lloyd Knerr and replaced the nouns. I was just
> wondering whether Bouma would be offended were the shoe on the other
> foot. I'm sure he would be. I never heard of the Freeze Church before
> the Bouma incident, so I didn't mean those folks any harm. Though I
> wonder what members of that church think of Knerr's sermon, what they
> think of the Mormon church, whether they think that Mormon's are
> Christians, whether they serve the same god, whether Mormons who say
> they believe in God are liars, like Knerr thinks?
>
> And anyone who thinks that these are irrelevant questions to ask Bouma
> is wrong. The fact is his pastor believes these things and it is fair
> to ask whether or not he does. There is nothing wrong with that
> question. Were I a Mormon, I wouldn't want someone who held such
> beliefs to be a state senator. Heck, I'm not Mormon and I don't want
> someone with these beliefs to be a state senator. A man who can only
> respect religious viewpoints that are the same as his own is not
> worthy of public office.
>
> The amazing thing is that Knerr now has an "explanation" at the top of
> this sermon where he says he "loves" Mormons. He didn't change a word,
> which means he still stands by those words. Unbelievable! Guess what.
> I don't want Knerr's love. What I want is Knerr's respect, respect for
> other reasonable points of view than his own. As Crabtree noted, you
> can take any religious view out of context and make it sound silly but
> that is exactly what Knerr did with the Mormon religion. In short, he
> disrespected it. The voters of Idaho, a state with a longstanding
> Mormon tradition, have a right to know whether a candidate for state
> senate respects the Mormon religion. And if he can't denounce the
> insulting words of his pastor, it is clear that he does not.
>
> For the record, this is not a political issue for me, it is an issue
> of religious freedom, a principle that is central to our constitution,
> our bill of rights. I am taking a sabbatical from politics and haven't
> been following the election -- other than noting Bouma's contempt for
> education, which I find personally offensive. But it doesn't mean I've
> taken a sabbatical from my senses, from my humanity.
>
> On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 5:35 PM, deb <debismith at moscow.com> wrote:
>> Oh, you marvelous troublemaker! I laughed until my ribs hurt! Truly
>> unfortunate that those who are thinking people will chuckle and move on,
>> those who have a severe religious bent will be infuriated at your
>> "blashphemy", and those with short attention spans will just delete it!
>> Just to continue the fun (Warning! Warning!):
>> I don't think I would be welcome in the Freeze Church---I have a hunch they
>> might take me out back to use as kindling for the barbeque.
>> As far as "God" goes, I think he's taking an extended nap until we all clap
>> our hands and declare "I do believe, I do believe" loud enough to wake him
>> up. Unfortunately, he will need to get breakfast from the "Mother" prior to
>> doing any smiting, and then a walk followed by a gossip at the pub, and
>> lunch, and by then probably down for a postprandial nap....thinking about
>> smiting is hard work!! Meantime, the Mother is calling up generic ("this
>> will affect all you idiots equally until you get the drift!") hurricanes,
>> ice-melts, earthquakes etc. just to get the attention of the dwellers on her
>> skin. Imagine how surprised she must be when those disasters of "Mother"
>> Nature are attributed to a snoozing boy-God, labeled his response to "sins"
>> for which she doesn't give a solar flare, and those same people proclaim
>> climate change is a hoax! WELL! Ever seen your own Mom well and trully
>> hacked off?
>>
>> But, being a Wiccan, I care not what others believe. I hope they get what
>> they need from their church-of-choice!  How ever they catch the boat to
>> Diety is just fine with me. Insisting I ride the same boat (or suffer the
>> fires of eternal damnation, burning at the stake, being stoned, spat upon,
>> etc. of things NOT in their Bible)  is problematic, however. I'd rather swim
>> (and I'm a poor swimmer) than catch the diety boat with some of these nutso,
>> nasty, loathesome beggars--I suspect I'd still make it to a happy afterlife
>> faster swimming than in their sinking boat, anyway.
>>
>> Now for a not so fun:
>> The "religious" folks who a attempted to disrupt schools, colleges, and
>> communities this last week over the "Laramie Project" are a perfect example
>> of religion gone awry. All thinking people, all believers in the dignity and
>> decency of religion, all those who understand that a diverse community is a
>> healthy community, all those who stand for inclusion, tolerance, and respect
>> for others......You hear the call. Stop standing by waiting for someone else
>> to hold the banner, lead the charge, make the statement, interrupt the
>> behaviour. Act on your beliefs for a change in this sick culture before it
>> becomes terminal. Theocracy is NOT in the Constitution of the USA. This
>> country was founded by people who wanted to AVOID imposed religion, and the
>> political crap associated with that state.....
>>
>> Debi Robinson-Smith
>> Tired of the Dumbing Down effect the religious right has had on my country.
>> SUPPORT AND FUND PUBLIC EDUCATION!!!
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dickow" <dickow at turbonet.com>
>> To: "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 7:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Postcardgate [LONG]
>>
>>
>>> I've just got to play devil's advocate...
>>>
>>> [WARNING: People with jobs or have actual responsibilites or are short on
>>> time should avoid reading this posting.]
>>>
>>>> Gresham Bouma’s situation got me thinking about false religions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Any religion that is not my religion is a false religion. When I was an
>>> active Catholic, I could get stuck in purgatory after my death for a
>>> gazillion years (or more...but who's counting at that point?) if I but set
>>> foot in some other denomination's church on Sunday. That's because anything
>>> other than the Catholic Church is a false religion. At least that's what we
>>> were taught when I was a kid. But.. doesn't that seem silly?
>>>
>>>> I know I may not be too popular with some of you for my stance, but I
>>>> think Bouma’s Freeze Community Church is as dangerous to America as
>>>> the infiltration of our society by Islam and Sharia Law.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Infiltration? Now... you don't really believe that do you? By the way,
>>> what about belief in Bokonon? I think we'd better investigate the rising
>>> tide of Bokononism. And just why do they call it the 'Freeze' Church? Do
>>> they have a stash of that Ice-9 stuff or something? Pretty suspicious if you
>>> ask me.
>>>
>>>> Bouma says that his campaign is not a political gathering, but a call
>>>> to return to God and His Laws, the Laws that this nation was founded
>>>> on. On the surface, a Christian could hardly be opposed to that call.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah. Thank God he only has about 10 laws, which will simplify many of our
>>> court decisions. I say AT LEAST 10 laws because, according to Mel Brooks in
>>> The History of The World Part I, there were more laws, but Moses
>>> accidentally broke the third stone tablet after descending Mt. Sinai.]
>>>
>>>> But what god is Bouma calling America to return to? Certainly he’s not
>>>> calling us to return to the God of the bible.
>>>>
>>>
>>> People of faith will recognize that we never left God. He is just in
>>> 'standby' mode. Push the play button again and God will be back with us in
>>> full.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bouma’s god was once a human being just like you or I.
>>>
>>> Uh oh... then we really are doomed.
>>>
>>>> I could go on
>>>> and on about the blasphemy and the heresy of Bouma's
>>>> non-denominational Freeze Community Church, but suffice it to say that
>>>> when Bouma tells you that you serve the same god that he does, he’s a
>>>> liar.
>>>>
>>>
>>> He just THINKS we serve the same God (oh... be sure capitalize God when
>>> you refer to X73&S@#$ (name changed to avoid being struck by lighning)). I
>>> think the god some folks worship in the conservative party is named with a
>>> single symbol, the $ (dollar) sign. So, there are other gods out there that
>>> are worthy of our prasie, especially when those sales are announced at
>>> Walmart. (to be fair, I've know some Democrats and Independents who also
>>> praised the $).
>>>
>>>> I am appalled at the number of Christians who follow Bouma’s pastor,
>>>> Lloyd Knerr,
>>>
>>> People follow when they hear stuff they want to hear, that affirms their
>>> fears and hopes.But I thought that Lord Knerr's religion or church is
>>> non-denomination. Are atheists welcome there, by the way?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you think a man’s religion doesn’t make any difference, the day
>>>> will come when you will realize that you have been sadly mistaken.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's why Bokononism is the only way to go. Trust me on that one. I'm
>>> really not sure about Catholicism these days.
>>>
>>>> I would guess that 90% of those who attend Bouma’s non-denominational
>>>> Freeze Community Church would call themselves Christian. If that’s
>>>> true, the church in America today is in greater danger than I ever
>>>> believed.
>>>
>>> What is 'the church' in America? I hope our citizens still recognize that
>>> we welcome all religions. There is no 'the church'. Unless of course, the
>>> reference is to the Catholic church. Then... ok.
>>>>
>>>> The true Jesus says that in the last days, many will be deceived. I
>>>> pray that you will not be one of them.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But... this suggests that we are now in 'the last days.' Huh? I keep
>>> hearing that. In fact, I have trouble counting how many times I've lived
>>> through the predicted end of the World. Well, I suppose, philosophically
>>> speaking, we are forever in 'the last days'. How long are 'the last days?' I
>>> million years? 3 billion years? When is the sun going to explode anyway? I
>>> forget. God... I lose sleep just thinking about that... when the sun
>>> explodes. It's going to, you know. Any time now. And, by God, I'm a
>>> Catholic, so I'll be ready.
>>>
>>> Bob Dickow, troublemaker
>>>
>>> P.S. You were warned.
>>>
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>>
>>
>