[Vision2020] Freedom of expression

[Gier, Nicholas]

Hi Paul,

I was not at all suggesting that the Chamber of Commerce shut down the NSA website.  That of course would be un-constitutional.  But I was suggesting is that the Chamber should be mindful of the ads of any business or institution that might put the city in a bad light.  All that they would have would be the power of persuasion not coercion.

However one might interpret the NSA Rumble in the Alley, I believe that it does indeed show that they don't mind dissing people they don't agree with.  And during the slavery debate that included the UI and its faculty.

Think of how much more business West of Paris would get if it weren't associated with Christ Church and its alienating tactics.

Nick


-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Sun 12/12/2010 3:57 PM
To: Joe Campbell
Cc: Vision2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Freedom of expression
 
I hate the concept of "hate speech" in law, and thus would like the 
non-law definition to be more strictly held. 

I do not see that home page as "hate speech" in either definition.  It's 
essentially a more creative and descriptive way of saying "we teach our 
students to fight the idea of secularism".  Nowhere did I see anything 
advocating actual violence.  It was a metaphor.  Or hyperbole.  Or 
something.  English class was a long time ago.  What it's not is hate 
speech.  Not in my opinion, anyway. 

I don't classify myself as a secularist, but they probably would.  I 
don't feel threatened in any manner.  If I met a bunch of NSA students 
in a dark alley and mentioned I was a proponent of secularism, the worst 
I would fear is a long debate when I'm just trying to get home from work.

To put it bluntly, you all are making a mountain out of a mole hill 
because you don't like Christ Church.  Let it go.  If they start 
threatening people on their website, I'll be on your side in trying to 
convince them to stop.  As it is, I'm only tempted to send them a note 
telling them that I thought the gift card thing was creative.

Paul

Joe Campbell wrote:
> Just to be clear, I am not really offended by NSA's website. I find it
> amusing. I'm also as straight, white, Christian, and male as you are,
> so it isn't too surprising that I'm not offended, that I don't feel
> threatened by people I know to be cowards and political opportunists.
> My real claim is that the NSA website is OFFENSIVE, that it is hate
> speech.
>
> Here's a good enough definition that I found on the web: "Hate speech
> is, outside the law, any communication which disparages a person or a
> group on the basis of some characteristic such as race or sexual
> orientation. In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct,
> writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence
> or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group,
> or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or
> group."
>
> I'm using it in the non-legal sense, so I'm not asking that the law
> step into the matter. Are you suggesting that the website is NOT hate
> speech, that it is not even worthy of criticism?
>
> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>   
>> And I'm not just talking about Freedom of Speech as codified in the Bill
>> of Rights.  That's only there to keep our government from trampling on
>> freedom of expression, which is a right we all have regardless of the
>> Bill of Rights.
>>
>> If this discussion had nothing to do with freedom of expression, then
>> the topics would change from "violent rhetoric" and "this offends me" to
>> "secularism doesn't have to be the enemy of Christian thought" and
>> "exactly what is secularism and why does it frighten them so".
>>
>> You see what I'm sayin'?
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Tom Hansen wrote:
>>     
>>> Paul Rumelhart stated:
>>>
>>> "I think the freedom of an individual or group of individuals to express
>>> themselves is sacrosanct.  The freedom to express your opinion should be
>>> held dearly by everyone, if they want to live in a free society."
>>>
>>> Nobody is arguing against NSA's right to speak or their right to post
>>> comments on their website.
>>>
>>> Nick Gier and Joe Campbell are merely argiung that the statements made by
>>> NSA are inappropriate, analagous to those complaints made here on the Viz
>>> (and a local blahg) against those of us who express our displeasure with a
>>> certain local un-pastor.
>>>
>>> New Saint Andrews College and its "management" are free to post whatever
>>> commentary they like.  Just as each of us has the right to evaluate the
>>> appropriateness of those comments.
>>>
>>> Yasee what I'm sayin'?
>>>
>>> Now, I may be going out on a limb here by suggesting that there are some
>>> Viz subscribers that feel less than thrilled by comments I have made, and
>>> they have every right to express their displeasure.  Many of them have.
>>> And in the future many more will.
>>>
>>> And yet life goes on.
>>>
>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>>
>>> Tom Hansen
>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>
>>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change
>>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>>>
>>> - Unknown
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       
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>
>   

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