[Vision2020] Keim on the Frequency of discussing Christ Church and NSA on Vision 2020

[Joe Campbell]

One more point. To even come close to backing your point up you would
need to do research for 4 hours a day for how ever many months you are
talking about. The last 6 months, 24 hours; the last 12 months, 48
hours. There is no way that you have this data. Ergo, you made an
assertion based on comments from your conservative friends and your
own personal experience. Is that the standard for evidence that you
are suggesting for accusations about groups of people: hearsay and
anecdotal evidence? Shouldn't we reach for higher standards? Best, Joe

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
> Darrell,
>
> Here's the point, which you seem to have missed. You made several
> accusations about the V's obsession with Christ Church and NSA (see
> below). You did not back any of them up -- not even when I asked you
> to do so during our original exchange. You make a comment below that
> my analysis is somewhat skewed -- "RE the month of November." But the
> point is that you made a harmful, prejudicial accusation that you
> STILL have yet to back up.
>
> I spent 4 hours today finding data that should convince you that your
> accusation might be false and has no basis in terms of recent posts on
> the V. If you think it has a basis, spend a little time to back it up.
> Or admit that you really don't know what you're talking about and that
> your opinion is based on hearsay from your conservative friends and
> nothing more. This is a harmful accusation that leads folks to dismiss
> the V for no reason. So far there is no evidence that you are doing
> more than spreading vicious rumors against your political opponents.
> If you're not, back your comments up and admit they have no basis.
>
> I'm not sure what the 3 things to think about below are meant to
> suggest but they sound insulting. I'd appreciate it if you stopped
> giving advice to me as if you knew me, which you don't. Let's just try
> to stick to the issues, which you are still managing to avoid.
>
> Best, Joe
>
> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Darrell Keim <keim152 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Joe:
>> A quick tip of the metaphorical hat.  Great analysis.  I would've enjoyed
>> discussing it with you while we were debating.
>> I agree with everything you said RE the month of November.
>> I will enjoy your future postings if they are of this caliber.
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I did a brief amount of research, checking out the frequency that
>>> folks on Vision 2020 talk about Christ Church or NSA and it is clear
>>> that Darrell Keim has over exaggerated that frequency, at least when
>>> it comes to RECENT discussion on Vision 2020. It might be the case
>>> that the topic was discussed more often a while ago but in terms of
>>> the NOVEMBER topics, the discussion is limited at best. The funny
>>> thing is, next to me the person who discussed CC or NSA the most on
>>> this list in November was Darrell! In short, this is not a topic
>>> discussed much any more by anyone other than myself. Even in my case,
>>> I mentioned CC and NSA in the last month less than 30% of the time,
>>> and the vast majority of those cases were in the discussions I had
>>> with Darrell. If Darrell and I had not debated about the issue, there
>>> would have been fewer than 10 passing references to CC or NSA during
>>> the month of November. I'm not sure of the total number of posts but
>>> it is in the hundreds.
>>>
>>> Again, this is just a cross section but it illustrates that not only
>>> were Darrell's continual assertions about Vision 2020s obsession with
>>> CC and NSA (see below) unsupported, something he at no time tried to
>>> fix by doing some research of his own, they are in fact, at least with
>>> respect to recent postings, flat-out incorrect. I challenge Darrell to
>>> come up with some RECENT data to support his claims (no use rehearsing
>>> the past, as Darrell has said) or to admit that in fact his claims
>>> were incorrect and there was NO reason for him to raise a fuse in the
>>> first place.
>>>
>>> First I'll list the data followed by some analysis followed by the
>>> assertions that Darrell has made which are refuted by the data. I am
>>> not a social scientist, so if someone else has recent findings that go
>>> against my claims, please bring them forth. Prejudicial claims by
>>> conservatives to the contrary don't count as DATA, by the way. Again,
>>> I choose the most recent month (took me about 4 hours this morning to
>>> compile the data by the way) but if someone else wants to investigate
>>> another RECENT month, please do so.
>>>
>>> Again, I just checked November in part because this was a recent month
>>> where the issue of CC/NSA explicitly came up. I lost count in my case,
>>> so the number of 15 is an estimate. But it is clear by looking at my
>>> postings this month that far fewer than half of the time did I talk
>>> about CC/NSA. And I am willing to admit my own obsession with CC/NSA.
>>> That is pretty well known! In some of the cases the discussion was
>>> really about whether I should talk about CC/NSA and in most cases I
>>> discuss topics that are not directly related to CC/NSA. In the other
>>> case, the numbers refer to even passing references, not the explicit
>>> mention of "Christ Church" or "Douglas Wilson" or "New Saint Andrews."
>>> Thus, when a name or intended reference was mentioned, even if in
>>> passing in a post about a completely different topic, I counted it.
>>>
>>> Joe Campbell                    15/52
>>> Art Deco                        5/43
>>> Keely Mix                       5/33
>>> Tom Hansen                      4/105
>>> Nick Gier                       2/8
>>> Moscow Cares                    0/15
>>> Saundra Lund                    0/14
>>> Andreas Schou           0/12
>>> Debi Smith                      0/9
>>> Carl Westberg                   0/8
>>> Bill London                     0/5
>>> Ralph Nielsen                   0/4
>>> Rosemary Huskey         0/2
>>>
>>> This is a list of some of the folks that we might expect to be talking
>>> about CC/NSA. Note that in Keely's case, the 5 instances include 2
>>> where there was merely a passing reference. In each of Tom's 4
>>> instances there is NO explicit reference to either CC or NSA. Here are
>>> some conservatives/moderates worth noting:
>>>
>>> Darrell Keim                    8/15
>>> Gary Crabtree                   0/26
>>> Roger Falen                     0/26
>>> Dan Carscallen          0/5
>>> Jeff Harkins                    0/3
>>>
>>> Again, notice that Darrell comes in number 2, next to me, in terms of
>>> posts discussing Christ Church and/or NSA for the month of November!
>>> It can't be the frequency of our discussion that disturbs him
>>> otherwise he'd have been better off NOT offering any criticisms to
>>> begin with.
>>>
>>>
>>> There were 3 posts that got the lion's share of CC/NSA attention.
>>>
>>> Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow’s Muscular Christianity
>>> 11 posts, though 2 were off topic. Joe (3); Darrell (2); Nick; Keely;
>>> Wayne (Art Deco); Tom. All of these are noted above.
>>>
>>> Curiosity Question
>>> 21 posts, some of which (Roger's insult, my response, Tom's apology)
>>> were off topic. Joe (9); Darrell (8); Tom (2); Roger; Keely. All of
>>> these are noted above.
>>>
>>> Health Education: A Conspiracy?
>>> 22 posts; only 6 reference CC or NSA; 3 of these were noted above.
>>>
>>> That gives us 42 posts for the month of December, the vast majority of
>>> which were made AFTER Darrell made his initial accusation (Nov 28) and
>>> 8 of which were made by Darrell himself.
>>>
>>>
>>> Here are some of Darrell's recent assertions about Vision 2020 and its
>>> obsession with CC/NSA, which seem to have been refuted:
>>> “The churches and schools which you hint at below have been well
>>> analyzed on this list.” (Nov 28 12:25:29)
>>>
>>> “… this topic has been well discussed on this list …” (Nov 28 14:32:45)
>>>
>>> “Unfortunately, this listserv seems like a one note instrument when
>>> almost everything is linked to that same topic.” (Nov 28 16:42:16)
>>>
>>> “It just doesn’t seem like v2020 benefits from having the topic come
>>> up so often.” (Nov 28 18:10:08)
>>>
>>> “And, to clarify my position I did not complain about NSA criticism on
>>> V2020. I complained about the amount of NSA criticism on v2020.  Too
>>> recap: I initially complained about how often things, such as the
>>> church list Tom posted, get linked back to CC.  When you pressed in a
>>> later note I elaborated that unless we had new info or something
>>> changed, it seems like most of the key players already know where they
>>> stand.  Thus, my belief that further discussion doesn’t seem to be of
>>> benefit.” (Dec 1 00:17:15)
>>>
>>> “I have no problem with NSA criticism, or praise for that matter, on
>>> V2020. I just wish the topic didn’t have to come up with such
>>> frequency.” (Dec 1 00:17:15)
>>>
>>> “Do they [Christ Church and NSA] constantly post on Vision 2020 about
>>> the same thing over and over and over and over and over... ad
>>> infinitum?  No, in fact they were pretty much run-off v2020 by folks
>>> that found them offensive (which would seem to violate points 1 AND 2
>>> of our Mission Statement).” (Dec 1 00:17:15)
>>>
>>> “If those issues came up with the same frequency as Christ Church, and
>>> no real change bringing in new info to discuss, I might.” (Dec 1
>>> 00:17:15)
>>>
>>> “None of those topics, or any other, get near the coverage on V2020
>>> that Christ Church does.  Too make an analogy: V2020 is like a
>>> household water spigot for most topics.  It is a fire hose for Christ
>>> Church topics.  I’d simply like to see the fire hose turned down.”
>>> (Dec 1 18:11:24)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 3 things to think about:
>> 1.  A diplomat is someone who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
>> you will look forward to the trip.
>> 2.  To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit
>> the target.
>> 3.  Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat
>> you with experience.
>>
>>
>>
>