[Vision2020] Say What?
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Tue Mar 31 11:30:41 PDT 2009
Hanni, Geneva Convention applies to soldiers. Terrorists are not soldiers, are they?
Best Regards,
Donovan
--- On Tue, 3/31/09, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>, "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>, "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 10:58 AM
How's this for a specific, Arnold?
-----------------------------------------
THE LAW.
----------
Article 3 of the Geneva Convention Accords (adopted on August 12, 1949) at:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
"Article 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring
in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the
conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:
1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of
armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat
by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all
circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded
on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other
similar criteria.
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time
and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds,
mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and
degrading treatment;
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without
previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording
all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by
civilized peoples."
-----------------------------------------
THE VIOLATION.
--------------
US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan - UN
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2005/06/24/afx2110388.html
-----------------------------------------
Is that sufficient?
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
> Sunil,
>
> You aren't pointing to any specifics, so it is hard to say.
>
> I know that the Constitution allows for the suspension of Habeas Corpus
in
> times of war. I know you think this is a violation of international law
> and the Geneva Convention.
>
> I believe, that the right to preserve the Union outweighs any
international> law, including the dropping of nuclear bombs on millions
of innocent
peopl> e and the denial of terrorists their basic human rights, including
the
righ> t to live or have a fair trial.
>
> Further, I don't see the United States government as having the right to
co> ncede powers it doesn't have. The people of the United States never
consent> ed to international law. So it isn't valid unless if also happens
to also
b> e federal or state law.
>
> Treaties are simply agreements between to two or more parties. I don't
cons> ider them law abiding. They are simply if and then statements, such
as if
y> ou give a $10 Billion and shut down your ship production I will not bomb
yo> u. If you don't I will continue, or if you allow us to ship in 100
million
> auto parts, we will allow you to ship in 20 million computer parts if you
d> on't, we won't.
>
> You must have the consent of the governed, international law doesn't.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Donovan
>
> --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
> To:
> Cc: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 8:53 AM
>
>
>
>
> #yiv1929964352 .hmmessage P
> {
> margin:0px;padding:0px;}
> #yiv1929964352 {
> font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
>
> Which treaties are you talking about?
>
> It seems to me you can't point at anything to support your position.
You> 're simply saying 'Might makes right.'
>
> Sunil
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:11:50 -0700
> From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sunil,
>
> If a treaty violates the Constitution, it isn't a valid treaty is it?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Donovan
>
> --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
> To:
> Cc: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 6:51 AM
>
>
>
>
> #yiv1929964352 .ExternalClass #EC_yiv657394139 .EC_hmmessage P
> {padding:0px;}
> #yiv1929964352 .ExternalClass #EC_yiv657394139
> {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
>
> Donovan,
>
> Is it correct that you cannot cite a legal basis for your position that
we
> are allowed to violate international law? So far you've offered
examples> of instances where we have apparently done so, but have not
offered a
reas> on or rationale that makes such actions legal.
>
> Is it your position that it is legal for us to do so? If so, how?
>
> I'm talking here of violations of treaties that we have adopted, and
theref> ore are US laws, under our constitution.
>
> Sunil
>
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