[Vision2020] Say What?

Sat Mar 28 22:31:10 PDT 2009

Your idea that we should work hard and send money to Mexico, Donovan, is exactly what Mexican immigrants are doing, benefiting the United States by their work and Mexico by their sending back of money to support family members.

Keely, there is a huge difference between US citizens working and sending money to aid others of their own free will versus that of forcing US citizens to accept anyone into this country illegally, take jobs illegally, not pay income taxes illegally, and use public services they don’t pay for, work in slavery like conditions, and then sending all the money they earn out of country when they go back home.   

I would be interested in seeing evidence that Mexico is the 12th wealthiest country in the world.  Do you mean in terms of natural resources?  I can tell you that there is tremendous poverty in Mexico.  I've been there.  Moreover, I know the desperation that my friends describe, and it makes me shudder.

According to the CIA World Fact Book, and other sources, which you are free to look up on your own, indicate that Mexico is the 12th most richest country in terms of GDP and GPP. There is tremendous poverty everywhere, even in the United States. Over 3 billion people in the world are living in what we would consider subhuman standards and living conditions. However, flooding the US with them doesn’t reverse this situation, but it does hurt us. The US doesn’t have the wealth to bring everyone to our level and standard of living. We do have the ability to help other nations, which we should. But are ability to do that is vastly downgraded as we are forced into massive debt trying to take care of 12 million illegal trespassers that destroy our economy. 

On the outskirts of Torreon, Coahuila, in north central Mexico there is a shanty town with dozens and dozens of structures (putting it generously) patched together with cardboard, old aluminum siding, plastic awning, trash bags, and mud.  Garden hoses supply water; ditches receive human waste.  In Nogales, Sonora, the Tarahumara Indians beg on the streets and retreat to little more than lean-to's clinging precipitously to eroded hillsides.  They are quite dark and have even less than the desperately poor Nortenos who are less Indian in descent.  In the state of Oaxaca, ranches and homes considered opulent by neighbors don't even have water, light, or even flooring, and children often quit school by fourth grade to work with their parents, for whom a home and a piece of land, no matter how primitive by our standards, represents a dream unlikely to ever be realized -- unless someone immigrates and sends home giros, or money orders and wire transfers.

Illegal immigration worsens these conditions because work given to visitors cannot be fairly accessed to the people that need it most. Work instead goes to those that cut in line, and have greater economic means and resources to overstep the people that are most deserving and in need. Most of the worst living conditions in Mexico are not because of a lack of wealth and resources in Mexico, but because Mexico is not distributing its wealth in a more equitable manner. 

Human need is gauged in different ways, though.  How about the woman whose baby was born with indeterminate and undeveloped genitalia, malformed hip sockets and spina bifida so profound that the baby's legs, when sitting, stretched out behind?  Deni's parents were poor, living in a partial-dirt-floor home in Mexico City, and his mom had to quit work to care for him because other women who babysat were terrified of her child, convinced the baby was stricken by the Evil Eye or because of demonic activity in the mom's life.  Surgeons closed Deni's spine and refused to try to do more -- no one had ever seen a case like Deni's, but no resources existed to try exploratory surgeries and therapies.  If you could wrangle a temporary visa, wouldn't you be tempted to stay on and let doctors at Portland's Children's Hospital treat your child?

Most the people in such situations can get an extension to their visas, most people just overstay because they don’t want to go back. These people are ones that prevent people with legitimate reasons from being able to stay longer. 

Most the people crossing the boarder are not in dire straits. The people in dire straits cannot afford the $10,000 it costs to cross the boarder. It is lower middle and middle classes in Mexico that are able bodied that come and take jobs from lower and poorer US citizens that are often in terrible personal economic shape and have no medical care either.  

The estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in this country are not the poorest of the poor. They are ones with the means and ability to pay $1000s to get here, and have skills to get jobs from US workers. They are not only taking jobs from US workers, but they are also taking jobs from 12 million would-be immigrants that are in a worse economic situation than they are in. This is the middle class stealing from the poor. This is wrong. 

Illegal immigration is wrong, and as you can plainly see, doesn’t help their country or their native people either. What it does do is destroy the US economy and its ability to help other nations and people around the world. It takes opportunities away from people with fewer or none. There are over 178 countries in the world. Only 11 are worse off than Mexico. My sympathies are with the countries that are truly poor and have no means. 
There are poor everywhere, unfortunately. But destroying the US economy and ignoring US immigration law does not help them. Wealth of the US is not causing poverty elsewhere and we do not have the means to take care of 3 billion globally. But we can help, but giving away our jobs is harmful. Again, the proof is in the pudding. 

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Sat, 3/28/09, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Saturday, March 28, 2009, 7:21 PM

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Your idea that we should work hard and send money to Mexico, Donovan, is exactly what Mexican immigrants are doing, benefiting the United States by their work and Mexico by their sending back of money to support family members.  

I would be interested in seeing evidence that Mexico is the 12th wealthiest country in the world.  Do you mean in terms of natural resources?  I can tell you that there is tremendous poverty in Mexico.  I've been there.  Moreover, I know the desperation that my friends describe, and it makes me shudder.

On the outskirts of Torreon, Coahuila, in north central Mexico there is a shanty town with dozens and dozens of structures (putting it generously) patched together with cardboard, old aluminum siding, plastic awning, trash bags, and mud.  Garden hoses supply water; ditches receive human waste.  In Nogales, Sonora, the Tarahumara Indians beg on the streets and retreat to little more than lean-to's clinging precipitously to eroded hillsides.  They are quite dark and have even less than the desperately poor Nortenos who are less Indian in descent.  In the state of Oaxaca, ranches and homes considered opulent by neighbors don't even have water, light, or even flooring, and children often quit school by fourth grade to work with their parents, for whom a home and a piece of land, no matter how primitive by our standards, represents a dream unlikely to ever be realized -- unless someone immigrates and sends home giros, or money orders and wire transfers.

Human need is gauged in different ways, though.  How about the woman whose baby was born with indeterminate and undeveloped genitalia, malformed hip sockets and spina bifida so profound that the baby's legs, when sitting, stretched out behind?  Deni's parents were poor, living in a partial-dirt-floor home in Mexico City, and his mom had to quit work to care for him because other women who babysat were terrified of her child, convinced the baby was stricken by the Evil Eye or because of demonic activity in the mom's life.  Surgeons closed Deni's spine and refused to try to do more -- no one had ever seen a case like Deni's, but no resources existed to try exploratory surgeries and therapies.  If you could wrangle a temporary visa, wouldn't you be tempted to stay on and let doctors at Portland's Children's Hospital treat your child?

I could tell you of many, many incidents other than the presumed lure of easy money that motivated people I know to cross over illegally or overstay visas.  There's nothing at all easy about the money immigrants make, and there's nothing free about crossing.  Buchanan and his ilk love to talk about family values, but when those values are tested to the extreme and courageously lived out by people enormously less fortunate than he is, the focus then turns to American values, or economic values, or any value, anywhere, that'll get us off the hook when it comes to Mexicans illegally crossing the border.

And that's a damned shame.

Keely
http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:37:39 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Say What?
To: thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com; kjajmix1 at msn.com

Keely,

I think it is wonderful that people like you are willing to sacrifice so much on a personal level to help others in great need. I think that is what God wants us all to do. I also agree that your experience gives you a perspective that I and others that have not worked in immigration camps do not have. I concede, that I don't know if illegal immigrants do or do not desire to learn the English language, I do know thought I also have to hit #1 for English almost everyday, and there are many places in the country where English is on an equal or lesser level than Spanish. I have been to parts of this country where I could not find an English speaking employee to assist me a department or convince store. 

I do disagree that helping people to break the law helps the world. I think it does more harm. Illegal immigration helps nobody except the lawbreakers. It hurts their country where they come from, it hurts their families, it hurts the communities they move to, and it is not, in my understanding an approved way under Christian law to ease suffering. 

I am sure if I robbed my neighbor, and pleaded poverty and substandard lifestyle as my justification, that God would not approve. 

Helping illegal immigrants into this country is hurting them. Not helping them. Looking at Mexico now, it is clear that taking their best and hardest workers, doesn't benefit their nation. In this country they will only survive by stealing, lying and cheating. I think the best way to help poorer people is to work hard here and donate wealth, helping others to donate their wealth to people living in poorer nations, and by convincing the US Government to assist Mexico in developing their own economy and distributing their wealth in a way as to minimize extreme poverty and dire living conditions. 

It is divine to be willing to give your wealth and resources to others. But it is flat out theft when you forcible take from one neighbor to give to another; which is what is being done with those that help illegal immigrants enter the country. 

Finally, putting things in perceptive. I don't regard Mexico as a poor nation in relative to the world and other people trying to enter this country. Mexico is one of wealthiest nations in the world (12th the in the world out of almost 200). Mexico is only poor relative to fully developed nations. I also reject the notion that most, or all or the people coming into the United States illegally are poor desperate people with no resources. Many of them are wealthier than I am. Many make more money than me, pay no taxes, and qualify for federal and state assistance that I don't. Many are people that have the means to pay the $5,000-$10,000 to coyotes to get them across the boarder, and have a place and job set up for them here. I don't have that kind of money or resources. So I see no reason to subsidize people that get paid more than me, and live better than me, simply because they come from a nation that is relatively poorer than ours. 

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Sat, 3/28/09, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Say What?
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Saturday, March 28, 2009, 10:46 AM

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Donovan,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments -- even the ones I disagree with!

My opinions come from something other than softhearted liberalism or even sentimental Christianity, and I'm a writer and a preacher, not an economist.  My views are passionate, and they're honed by more than a decade in the undocumented immigrant trenches, as it were, or as close to it as a white citizen of the U.S. can be, which is to say, not real close -- I was born to a mother on this side of the border, with light skin, an Anglo name, and automatic access to every benefit that middle-class Americans have.  I'll never know, empirically, the suffering that drives the desire to immigrate without papers.  Neither will you.

However, I would venture that I've had more experience, one-on-one and in community, with undocumented immigrants than just about anyone you know, and very likely more than Pat Buchanan, whose hysteria would, I imagine, not be nearly as pronounced if these were Swedish immigrants with blond hair and lots of kids named David and Allison instead of Fulgencio and Maria de Jesus.  I don't accuse you or other opponents of undocumented immigration of racism, but I'm not willing to cut Buchanan the same slack.   It's clear in his writings that much of his concern is the "browning" of America, with accented English and quincenearas and entire downtown areas taken over by Mexican tienditas and restaurants.  That the quinceneara industry in the U.S., fueled largely by immigrants, pumps millions into the economy is, maybe, beside the point, but it's hard to argue that the revitalization of downtown areas, such as Monroe, Washington, by Mexican immigrant-owned
 businesspeople is anything other than a boost to those towns' economies.  Empty storefronts are a blight and a drain; their regeneration as successful businesses is no less positive because the business owner's last name is Benavides.

I don't doubt that the U.S. spends billions on healthcare for undocumented workers and their children, and a way of recouping that money would be, under a widespread amnesty that would grant legal-worker status to millions, the collection of tax monies currently not paid.  By the way, taxes are very often deducted from worker paychecks and pocketed by employers; the employee doesn't benefit from any workers' comp coverage and gives up a chunk of her paycheck to bosses who doctor the books.  Recognition of the contributions of undocumented workers by legalizing them makes it virtually impossible for crooked employers to cheat the State or the employee.  I'm not an economist or a lawyer; I am someone who has made countless trips to small dairies and farms to stand knee-deep in cow manure to plead for a worker's paycheck.  I've held the hand of a man whose arm nearly got ripped off in a farming accident that left him partially disabled and without
 worker's comp coverage -- his boss had deducted but pocketed the money from Ray's checks and, perhaps in a fit of remorese, told him to go on Medicaid and come back to the farm for a less-strenuous job when he got better.  I've gone face-to-face with dairy owners who told men that the first month of their employment was "training" -- unpaid -- and then cut their already-low wages in half because "housing" was provided on-site.  I would not keep my dog in what passed for housing for men and their families on such dairies -- 24-foot, 20-year-old house trailers with inadequate facilities plopped down in a level space as close to the cows as possible to make split-shifts and midnight milkings easier.  I don't doubt, obviously, that undocumented workers are treated badly, but given their contributions to the economy and their willingness to do work that others won't, their maltreatment is a clear cry for legalization and protection, not condemnation and
 marginalization.

Finally, I dispute the contention that Mexican immigrants don't want to learn English.  For more than a decade, I taught weekly English classes, in Spanish, to subliterate immigrants with three or four years of schooling and college-educated immigrants who had been lawyers and police officers in Mexico.  I developed my own curriculum, distributed bilingual Bibles, and spent up to 20 hours a week, sometimes more, translating and advocating for hundreds of people.  This doesn't make me a hero, and it doesn't make me the point of the argument.  It does give me grounds to vigorously refute the idea that "they" come here to soak up benefits and then scurry back to their enclaves to "stay Mexican" and consciously reject assimilation.  I couldn't keep up with the demand for English-language instruction; at the time, in the 1990s, I was pretty much the only resource in town for people to learn English, receive translation help and advocacy, and hear the
 Gospel in their native tongue (I also co-pastored with another woman a small Mexican congregation in Duvall, Washington).  I never counseled people I knew to be here without papers to benefit from taxpayer-supported services; it was the social worker at DSHS who said her agency preferred to step in with simple, non-catastrophic services before they became catastrophic, and who said that if it would make me feel better,  I could drive folks to Safeway and let them walk across the parking lot to keep their appointments with her staff.  But very few people I knew then, out of a friend-network comprised almost exclusively of undocumented immigrants, made use themselves of the services offered to them; they simply wanted Medicaid for their children, most of whom were born in the same hospital as my son.  I'd like to hear the voices of those on the front lines of service to undocumented Mexican workers, rather than those whose ability to see and feel is
 energized not by interaction with individuals, but fear.

A young woman I consider to be the daughter I never had, someone I love like my own child and whose husband and children are as much my family as my own brother is, illustrates wonderfully the loyalty to the United States and the hard work and responsibility I've seen in the overwhelming majority of "illegals" I've worked with.  I'll call her Juana.  Her three kids are in elementary school.  One is a perennial "top student" award-winner, the other is a mischievous kid who's very smart and aced reading and math alongside his other third-grade pals, and the youngest has some learning disabilities that make school hard for him.  Juana and Guillermo attend every scheduled parent conference and often schedule some in between.  The kids are all involved in soccer, their parents work hard, they keep their apartment clean and, to the consternation of their neighbors, act as a sort of neighborhood watch-guild.  Juana and Guillermo insist on English in the
 house, but insist, also, that the kids retain their Spanish so they can help non-English-speaking schoolmates.  They consider themselves Americans, pray for our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, pay taxes, have driver's licenses, spend too much on their kids' Easter and First Communion clothes, and pick up the ticket more often than not when we eat out.  Guillermo earns regular promotions and bonuses at work, and Juana cleans houses and manages the budget and issues decrees that Albertson's has better prices than Safeway and chides Guillermo if he picks up milk at Safeway.  They hope someday to buy a house, like scores of others I've known who now occupy tidy suburban cul-de-sacs dotted with depressingly identical split-level houses.  They held off, though, because what we now call "subprime mortgages" seemed suspiciously easy to them -- too good to be true, and too unclear to be trusted.  Instead, they saved their money and stayed in their
 apartment and marveled that so many Americans are losing their homes.

In short, they're the kind of people you'd want next door to you.  Their children will become your grandchild's teacher, or the police officer who tickets you for speeding, or the independent contractor whose business steadily grows as his reputation becomes known.  That is, if they're not deported.  Their story is not unusual in my experience; I've seen loyalty and responsibility confirmed over and over and over again in the people I love and worked with.  Like it or not, they will become part of the vibrant fabric of America, and the tapestry they help weave will be a more beautiful, more rich, more durable one than the shoddy rag of fear and suspicion woven by Pat Buchanan.

I'll close with an acknowledgement that much of what I've said is anecdotal; my experiences and relationships inform and establish my expertise.  But policy decisions can only be based on fear when they're not made from contact, personal contact, with individuals who represent a threat not because they truly do, but simply because we're told they do.  I also acknowledge that some of the things I've done, while wrong to some, may strike others as heroically generous and kind.  They weren't.  I'm not a heroically generous and kind person.  Hundreds of Moscow residents who know me will testify, eagerly, I imagine, that I'm often stubborn, prideful, and woefully impatient with people.  I did what I did by God's grace and his condescension to use someone like me where the need was evident, and I'm grateful that I got to work among my friends the way I did.  So I offer these examples and my perspective to support my views that the United States has much
 less to fear from Hispanic immigration than Pat Buchanan claims, and to ask that we engage openly and generously with people before supporting policy decisions that not only harm them, but us.

Keely
http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:15:03 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
To: thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com; kjajmix1 at msn.com

Keely,

I don't know where you get your information that 135 million American believe as Buchanan does. However, I do agree that illegal immigration is a serious threat to the survival of the United States as an economically strong nation with a positive future. 

The strength of the United States is based on the diversity which it has, a commitment and loyalty to the nation, a willingness to put more into the community than they take out, and adherence to its laws and conversion to its societies norms.  

I don't think see that with most illegal immigrants. For starters, most of them don't even hold a loyalty to the United States and many are not even willing to learn English. Many of them wish to convert their environment to the nation they came from, not convert to the US. 

Second, they do not follow the nation's laws. They disobey and destroy the communities they live in, and send money out of the country, to their country of origin. They often return to their nation of origin and still do not consider the US home. They just work here seasonally, or for just a few years. 

Third, they take jobs from other US Citizens. Which weakens the economy, increased unemployment, and reduces tax revenues. 

Look at California and Southern Nevada. These areas are stricken with dire poverty, record unemployment rates, astronomical deficits, and an inability to govern themselves. The proof is in the pudding.

There is absolutely no reason to support a system which exploits illegal workers, US workers, and the community tax base in favor of a handful of businesses trying to make a few bucks.  

Finally, It is incredibly discriminatory to deny people who follow the law in over 200 nations worldwide fair and equitable access to the US and bid on a chance for citizenship in favor of flooding the country with illegal immigrants from a handful of nations to our south that follow no rules or restricts. 

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Thu, 3/26/09, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
To: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 2:01 PM

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I'm far more concerned about the 135 million people in this country who believe as Pat Buchanan does, presuming that the only way our nation "survives" is if it remains, or reverts to, a nation full of European-immigrant descendants.  My 11 years of ministering to largely undocumented Mexican immigrants has convinced me that we have nothing to fear, and much to gain, from Hispanic immigration.  Recognizing that we have millions of hard-working, loyal, decent immigrants who desperately love the United States of America would best be demonstrated by a broad and generous amnesty, one that enfranchises people and, not insignificantly, allows the country to collect taxes and regulate employer abuse they often suffer.  

Why Pat Buchanan is so frightened would be a mystery to me, if I didn't read his stuff and have it confirmed that the "browning" of America, and the "accented" English he hears, threaten his position as a privileged white male and his dream of a country led and populated by people just like him.  Believe me, he makes it perfectly clear . . . 

Keely
http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/

> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> From: thansen at moscow.com
> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:22:35 +0000
> Subject: [Vision2020] Say What?
> 
> "Who is going to care 30 years from now whether a Sunni or a Shia is in 
> Baghdad or who's ruling in Kabul? We're going to have 135 million 
> Hispanics in the United States by 2050, heavily concentrated in the 
> southwest. The question is whether we're going to survive as a country."
> 
> - Pat Buchanan
> 
> 
> Seeya round town, Moscow.
> 
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
> 
> Join us at The First Annual Intolerista Wingding, April 17th, featuring 
> Roy Zimmerman and Jeanne McHale. For details go to . . .
> 
> http://www.MoscowCares.com/Wingding
> 
> Seeya
> there.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> http://www.fsr.com/
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> 
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