[Vision2020] Public Smoking

[Joe Campbell]

I agree that laws should be avoided when possible. But that suggests  
another solution, which first requires that one sees that there is a  
problem.

I don't see why you expert market forces to change anything. They  
haven't done it so far. Again this "solution" suggests that there is  
no problem to begin with.

And maybe there isn't! But in the end it doesn't matter what you or I  
think. It matters what the council and mayor think. I wouldn't be  
surprised to find them sympathetic to a ban. I'm not saying I expect  
it but it wouldn't surprise me. Unless of course they find a better  
solution. I'm pretty convinced that most of them do think it is a  
problem.

Joe Campbell

On Jun 21, 2009, at 9:07 AM, bear at moscow.com wrote:

> Joe,
>
> My point has always been, and still is, we don't need a local law. The
> market forces will make the necessary changes if they need to take  
> place.
> People can make choices IF THEY HAVE THEM. What this local legislation
> will do is take away choice.
>
> In this case, if you don't want to service equipment in a smoking
> establishment, don't.
> If you don't like smoke in an establishment, then don't go there.
> If you don't like smoke in an establishment, don't work there.
>
> BUT, it boils down to choice.
>
> What I've heard on here is that folks want the benefits of these
> establishments, but want it their way, not the way the owners of the
> establishments have set them up and run them.
> They have a choice.
>
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>> Bear,
>>
>> I'm not a regulator. I'm not sure what side to take in this issue
>> since I see good arguments on both sides. But I can't help but  
>> comment
>> when I see a bad argument and the "choice" argument promoted by you
>> and Kai and others strikes me as a bad argument. If it were a good
>> argument, it would work against government regulation of any kind but
>> it doesn't.
>>
>> Joe Campbell
>>
>> On Jun 21, 2009, at 8:36 AM, bear at moscow.com wrote:
>>
>>> Kai,
>>>
>>> I have a feeling that nothing we can say, or even try to enter  
>>> into a
>>> discussion where alternatives, will please the "Regulators"!
>>>
>>> They will find all sorts of "straw men" to throw out, like the  
>>> service
>>> persons having to come in (they aren't forced to fix equipment by  
>>> the
>>> way), and I love the insurance argument!  How many waiters and
>>> waitresses
>>> even get insurance?
>>>
>>> There are many dangers in every occupation, and they have a CHOICE.
>>> What
>>> the "Regulators" are really annoyed about is that they can't control
>>> everything (yet) so they will chip away and chip away. Hell, they
>>> aren't
>>> happy with the state law allowing exceptions to the "Idaho Clean Air
>>> Act",
>>> so they will chip away where and when they can.
>>>
>>> Mostly, I vote with my wallet on these issues. (And I vote at the
>>> poles
>>> during elections) IF a place bothers me, I don't go there. The
>>> "Regulators" aren't happy with that choice. Rather than not go to an
>>> establishment where the smoking is allowed under State Law, they
>>> want the
>>> establishment to change via imposed legislation from the city  
>>> council.
>>>
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>>>> I actually excpected an answer like Mike's.
>>>> So, how often are "others" in a bar during the bar's "operating
>>>> hours"?
>>>> They don't operate on a "9-5" schedule.
>>>> Most, if not all, of the maintainance, repairs and deliveries are
>>>> made
>>>> while the joint is closed.
>>>> So, it would seem that Mike's response is the true "straw man".
>>>> There was nothing dismissive, people were whining about those who  
>>>> are
>>>> employed at smoking establishments. I made a reasonable suggestion.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>
>