[Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with facts."
Wayne Price
bear at moscow.com
Fri Jul 24 11:14:10 PDT 2009
Gary,
I too am stuck with this one. While I am personally anti-abortion, I
am still pro-choice on the matter. IF I were in a situation where the
abortion decision had to be made, I would choose NOT to terminate the
pregnancy and put the child up for adoption. HOWEVER, I still believe
that the choice to be made should NOT be the governments to make but
the individuals.
Wayne
> Is mis-stating my position really the only way you can think of to
> try and make a valid point?
>
> As I have said repeatedly, I believe that if homosexuals can find
> someone who is willing to pronounce them man and man, wife and wife,
> or man, wife, wife, or any permutation thereof then swell, I wish
> them the best. What I am not in favor of is in my or the state being
> forced to recognize it.
>
> With regard to the abortion issue though I've really got to admit
> that you've got me caught on the horns of a delimma. How could I not
> see the similarity between making a choice that has a 1 in 15 chance
> of potentially damaging the health of the person doing the choosing
> and making a decision that has a 100% chance of killing an innocent
> party?
>
> In both of your examples the decision extends to others who will not
> be given a choice to participate. Bar patrons and employess do get
> to make an informed choice and as a result your comments seem a
> trifle lame.
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joe Campbell
> To: the lockshop
> Cc: TIM RIGSBY ; <starbliss at gmail.com> ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 9:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people
> with facts."
>
> You don't even think that ADULTS are able to make decisions about
> whom to marry or whether pr not to have children, so stop pretending
> to respect a person's right to make decisions for him or herself!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 24, 2009, at 12:11 PM, "the lockshop"
> <lockshop at pull.twcbc.com> wrote:
>
>> It would seem that you, Mr. Moffet, and our city council have a
>> mighty low opinion of the intelligence of the patrons and employees
>> of bars and taverns. I can't speak for your students but, I find it
>> very difficult to believe that by the time a citizen reaches the
>> age of 21 in the United States he hasn't heard the anti-smoking
>> mantra to the point of nausea.
>>
>> How lucky we are that there are people out there who will take it
>> upon themselves to prevent emancipated Americans from making their
>> own decisions with regard to the risks they take in life.
>>
>> g
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: TIM RIGSBY
>> To: starbliss at gmail.com ; vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people
>> with facts."
>>
>> I would like to add the idea of this saying,
>>
>> "Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story."
>>
>> Either way Ted, you brought up some very valid points that tend to
>> be forgotten when people discuss tobacco/smoking regulation and
>> legislation. What scares me as a Health Teacher is when I hear my
>> junior high and high school aged students talking about how safe,
>> they think anyway, Hookah bars are. When asked if they would ever
>> smoke cigarettes, they claim that they won't. Yet what these
>> students don't realize is that they are actually smoking tobacco at
>> the high school hookah parties. What is even scarier is a lot of
>> the parents think that hookah is a safe alternative as well.
>>
>> The hookah bar closest to my house in Boise is constantly packed
>> with young people all of the time. Often times, other substances
>> are being laced into the tobacco as well and these young people are
>> unknowingly smoking illegal drugs along with their fruit and
>> tobacco mixture.
>>
>> I predict in the not so distant future, Boise and possibly the
>> State Legislature will enact legislation to regulate/control these
>> hookah establishments.
>>
>> Here is a question to ponder. By definition based on Idaho Code,
>> what is a hookah bar categorized as? A restaurant, a bar, a
>> private club? If it falls under the bar definition, then people
>> under 21 should not be allowed in. It seems as though hookah bars
>> would fall into an undefined gray area of the Idaho Clean Indoor
>> Air Act. However, Moscow seems to have covered hookah bars in
>> their recent ban of smoking, I could be wrong though.
>>
>> " 'Politics is the art of controlling your environment.' That is
>> one of the key things I learned in these years, and I learned it
>> the hard way. Anybody who thinks that 'it doesn't matter who's
>> President' has never been Drafted and sent off to fight and die in
>> a vicious, stupid War on the other side of the World -- or been
>> beaten and gassed by Police for trespassing on public property --
>> or been hounded by the IRS for purely political reasons -- or
>> locked up in the Cook County Jail with a broken nose and no phone
>> access and twelve perverts wanting to stomp your ass in the shower.
>> That is when it matters who is President or Governor or Police
>> Chief. That is when you will wish you had voted." - Hunter S.
>> Thompson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:39:45 -0700
>> From: starbliss at gmail.com
>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Subject: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people
>> with facts."
>>
>> The "Off List" response referenced, from someone I regard as one of
>> the most educated and honest Vision2020 participants, that I
>> received to my post below on tobacco regulation, is in total what
>> is stated in the subject heading of this post. Wise words, no
>> doubt, that I ignore at my own risk...
>>
>> Notice there is limited or no discussion of some of the critical
>> facts my post presented: that tobacco (nicotine) is a physically
>> addictive drug, with underage tobacco addiction common, raising
>> questions if whether adult "choice" is in effect regarding
>> employees or consumers in tobacco related decisions; that tobacco
>> is the leading cause of premature death (nuclear waste or energy or
>> even nuclear weapons production is not even close as a cause of
>> premature death); that other drugs doing less harm to society than
>> tobacco are criminalized and prosecuted aggressively, involving
>> civil and human rights violations, yet who among those opposing
>> regulation of tobacco, will as aggressively advocate for these
>> drugs to be managed by free choice and the marketplace, rather than
>> a government "Big Brother?" Some, perhaps... While there are
>> others who should know better playing some on this list as fools,
>> for the sake of debate, or political advantage, or popular image or
>> whatever... Or they are as deluded as those they are debating with...
>>
>> My response to the "Off List" comment discussed here:
>>
>> Ummm... OK, I guess... However, being an idealist in belief that
>> expressing the truth is morally mandated (where did I get that
>> dangerous idea? I''ll end up in serious trouble! Oh, I forgot, I
>> already am...), I may not comply. I recently read a variation of
>> this same expression in James Lovelock's "Revenge of Gaia:" "Don't
>> confuse me with the facts, my minds made up." Lovelock was
>> referring to this mentality regarding the rejection of nuclear
>> power by many in the environmental movement.
>>
>> Ted
>>
>>
>> Please do not continue to confuse people with facts.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ted Moffett
>> To: Moscow Vision 2020
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:55 AM
>> Subject: [Vision2020] Tobacco: Targeting the Nation’s Leading
>> Killer: Centers for Disease Control
>>
>>
>> Tobacco (nicotine) is a physically addictive drug. Once addicted,
>> "choice" becomes a problematic concept. And many people become
>> addicted while underage, encouraged to continue their addiction in
>> bars, where cigarettes are often shared between customers.
>>
>> The fact tobacco is physically addictive is absent from the
>> comments of many opposing the smoking ordinance, as are the facts
>> regarding the magnitude of the damage. Comparisons to other
>> harmful behaviors are drawn (fatty food, etc.), suggesting that a
>> slippery slope of regulation will lead to government control over
>> too many aspects of life, but many of these behaviors do not
>> involve a drug addiction. Of course alcohol has dramatic negative
>> impacts. But workers in bars are not forced to drink the drinks
>> the customers order, as they breathe the smoke of the customers.
>>
>> I find it incredible that the health of workers exposed to an
>> addictive drug when they breathe in the workplace is approached so
>> callously. They can work elsewhere, it's announced with smug
>> authority, as if in this economy workers have the luxury of
>> choosing whatever job suits their fancy, rather than an urgency to
>> take whatever work they can find. If it was cocaine or heroin or
>> methamphetamine that workers were exposed to, the attitude might be
>> different.
>>
>> Profits from exposing workers to addictive drugs in the workplace
>> should be protected based on free market, free choice, adult
>> responsibility? If this is the logic, where are the protests
>> against laws imposed on those selling cocaine, heroin or
>> methamphetamine, et. al., to consenting adults, which can result in
>> long prison sentences? Let the free market decide! Why stand in
>> the way of profits and the free choice of adults?
>>
>> If those opposing the smoking ordinance were consistent in their
>> outrage against limits on the free market, their ideology might
>> have more intellectual credibility. Instead, the libertarianism
>> proposed is inconsistent and conformist. Or perhaps those opposed
>> to the smoking ordinance will now protest that bars do not allow
>> legal cocaine, heroin or methamphetamine use? Think of the profits
>> to be made! And remember, tobacco prematurely kills more people
>> than those three drugs combined...
>>
>> If attempts were made to criminalize tobacco like cannabis is,
>> resulting in prison sentences, home invasions, for sale or use, I
>> would oppose this vehemently. But an ordinance regulating smoking
>> in bars does not stop any adult from legally using tobacco products
>> in settings where they do not expose workers.
>>
>> If worker freedom of choice was a valid argument to justify the
>> exposure of workers to tobacco smoke in bars, than OSHA could be
>> mostly eliminated. After all, if workers exposed to hazards
>> monitored or banned by OSHA don't want to work with those risks,
>> they can work elsewhere, as long as signs posted in the workplace
>> inform them of the risks. A "Big Brother" government bureaucracy
>> gone.
>> --------------------------
>> http://www.cdc.gov/NCCDPHP/publications/aag/osh.htm
>> The Burden of Tobacco Use
>>
>> Tobacco use is the single most preventable cause of disease,
>> disability, and death in the United States. Each year, an estimated
>> 443,000 people die prematurely from smoking or exposure to
>> secondhand smoke, and another 8.6 million have a serious illness
>> caused by smoking. For every person who dies from smoking, 20 more
>> people suffer from at least one serious tobacco-related illness.
>> Despite these risks, approximately 43.4 million U.S. adults smoke
>> cigarettes. Smokeless tobacco, cigars, and pipes also have deadly
>> consequences, including lung, larynx, esophageal, and oral cancers.
>> The harmful effects of smoking do not end with the smoker. More
>> than 126 million nonsmoking Americans, including children and
>> adults, are regularly exposed to secondhand smoke. Even brief
>> exposure can be dangerous because nonsmokers inhale many of the
>> same carcinogens and toxins in cigarette smoke as smokers.
>> Secondhand smoke exposure causes serious disease and death,
>> including heart disease and lung cancer in nonsmoking adults and
>> sudden infant death syndrome, acute respiratory infections, ear
>> problems, and more frequent and severe asthma attacks in children.
>> Each year, primarily because of exposure to secondhand smoke, an
>> estimated 3,000 nonsmoking Americans die of lung cancer, more than
>> 46,000 (range: 22,700–69,600) die of heart disease, and about
>> 150,000–300,000 children younger than 18 months have lower
>> respiratory tract infections.
>> Coupled with this enormous health toll is the significant economic
>> burden of tobacco use—more than $96 billion per year in medical
>> expenditures and another $97 billion per year resulting from lost
>> productivity.
>>
>>
>> [A text description of this graph is also available.]
>>
>> The Tobacco Use Epidemic Can Be Stopped
>>
>> A 2007 Institute of Medicine (IOM) report presented a blueprint for
>> action to “reduce smoking so substantially that it is no longer a
>> public health problem for our nation.” The two-pronged strategy for
>> achieving this goal includes not only strengthening and fully
>> implementing currently proven tobacco control measures, but also
>> changing the regulatory landscape to permit policy innovations.
>> Foremost among the IOM recommendations is that each state should
>> fund a comprehensive tobacco control program at the level
>> recommended by CDC in Best Practices for Comprehensive Tobacco
>> Control Programs–2007.
>> Evidence-based, statewide tobacco control programs that are
>> comprehensive, sustained, and accountable have been shown to reduce
>> smoking rates, tobacco-related deaths, and diseases caused by
>> smoking. A comprehensive program is a coordinated effort to
>> establish smoke-free policies and social norms, to promote and
>> assist tobacco users to quit, and to prevent initiation of tobacco
>> use. This approach combines educational, clinical, regulatory,
>> economic, and social strategies.
>> Research has documented the effectiveness of laws and policies to
>> protect the public from secondhand smoke exposure, promote
>> cessation, and prevent initiation when they are applied in a
>> comprehensive way. For example, states can increase the unit price
>> of tobacco products; implement smoking bans through policies,
>> regulations, and laws; provide insurance coverage of tobacco use
>> treatment; and limit minors’ access to tobacco products.
>> If the nation is to achieve the objectives outlined in Healthy
>> People 2010, comprehensive, evidence-based approaches for
>> preventing smoking initiation and increasing cessation need to be
>> fully implemented.
>> CDC's Response
>>
>> CDC is the lead federal agency for tobacco control. CDC’s Office on
>> Smoking and Health (OSH) provides national leadership for a
>> comprehensive, broad-based approach to reducing tobacco use. A
>> variety of government agencies, professional and voluntary
>> organizations, and academic institutions have joined together to
>> advance this approach, which involves the following activities:
>> Preventing young people from starting to smoke.
>>
>> Eliminating exposure to secondhand smoke.
>>
>> Promoting quitting among young people and adults.
>>
>> Identifying and eliminating tobacco-related health disparities.
>> Essential elements of this approach include state-based, community-
>> based, and health system-based interventions; cessation services;
>> counter marketing; policy development and implementation;
>> surveillance; and evaluation. These activities target groups who
>> are at highest risk for tobacco-related health problems.
>> -------------------------------------------
>> Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett
>>
>>
>> Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Celebrate the moment with your favorite
>> sports pics. Check it out.
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.26/2257 - Release Date:
>> 07/23/09 18:00:00
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.27/2258 - Release Date:
> 07/24/09 05:58:00
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20090724/73d7427a/attachment-0001.html
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list