[Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Wed Jul 22 11:59:12 PDT 2009
Thanks, Garrett. I noticed you said that the new law was too strict
and that is something all of us might agree with.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 22, 2009, at 2:45 PM, Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
wrote:
> If you read my posts, you will see that I support reasonable
> limitations as opposed to the ban.
>
> Garrett Clevenger
>
>
> From: Shelley Roderick <cjsnightclub at cableone.net>
> To: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>; Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net
> >
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:23:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
>
> There is a huge difference between "reasonable limited" and taken
> away.
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Garrett Clevenger
> Date: 7/22/2009 8:11:24 AM
> To: g. crabtree
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
>
> You mean like a person who you want to protect with a "conscience
> rule" who has a choice not to work at a place that performs
> abortions? You wanted to take away the right of an employer to be
> able to terminate people who don't do their job, if I remember right.
>
> I don't think employers have the right to knowingly and unreasonably
> expose workers and patrons to hazardous compounds, despite any
> choice a person has from avoiding exposure.
>
> Farmers have to take precautions to not expose people to pesticides,
> despite what they deem as a need to spray. It seems that any
> workplace should have hazards reasonably limited.
>
> Garrett Clevenger
>
>
> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> To: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>; Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com
> >
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:23:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
>
> Why do you repeatedly use the phrase "have to breathe" when
> referring to employees and patrons? Neither of these groups "have to
> do any such thing. They can make a rational adult choice and not
> frequent the establishment.
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Garrett Clevenger
> To: Darrell Keim
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
>
> The government does try to regulate behavior on private property.
> We're talking about businesses open to the public, though. They
> can't even sell alcohol without a permit, and alcohol is legal. Why
> should they be allowed to knowingly endanger public health with
> second hand smoke, when there are ways to prevent that?
>
> If a smoker wants to smoke a carcinogenic and addictive substance,
> that's their right, but that doesn't give them the right to pollute
> the air others have to breath. It seems reasonable to try to limit
> the exposure to second hand smoke, and if businesses won't do it,
> then apparently the city feels the need to ban it completely. Since
> they like to pass laws without proper consideration, I'm not
> surprised. Could we have gotten a better written law? Yes.
>
> Second hand smoke should be a regulated hazardous substance. You
> know they use nicotine bombs in greenhouses to kill the pests?
> Granted that's concentrated, but cigarettes also contain numerous
> other chemicals, from pesticides to preservatives, making that smoke
> even more toxic. Not only is it bad for people to breath, it
> destroys whatever may be in the room. Replacing a pair of speakers
> is not cheap, but things will wear out quicker in a smokey bar than
> a non-smokey one.
>
> Obviously drinking too much alcohol can be even worse. Bars will cut
> overly drunk people off to try to prevent accidents (and not be
> liable) People who go to a bar can choose not to drink. I'm not
> advocating prohibition and I'm not advocating banning smoking. I
> like beer too much and people will smoke anyway. But while being in
> a room full of drunk people may be annoying, if there's smoke, it's
> even worse as that smoke is unavoidable and extremely irritating to
> some people. Those smokers took that choice away. Their only real
> choice is to leave, but that still doesn't address the overall
> problems caused by second hand smoke.
>
> Maybe you know more about the clean air standards, but I imagine
> they apply to places where people go. Do businesses have the right
> to have any contaminants that might be present? That would seem like
> a violation of some type of law, but maybe you are saying there is a
> free-for-all, buyer-beware. If indoor air quality is a concern for
> the government in general, it seems like second-hand smoke should be
> on that list.
>
> Like I said before, I'm not a supporter of the law that was passed.
> They should have at least given it three votes to get more public
> feedback. But I'm not as against this law as the noise ordinance,
> which affects our first amendment right. Where were you when the
> city passed that? I'll admit I may not be super consistent, but I
> will definitely stand up for protection of free speech rights over
> the right of a business to pollute the air its employees and patrons
> have to breath.
>
> Bars can have better ventilation systems and reduce areas where
> people can smoke, and Les Schwab can put their tires in a room where
> people aren't working all day. Walmart should be ventilating their
> air better, as a room that size full of brand new plastics and
> questionable Chinese products should be suspicious to people who are
> aware that there are some nasty chemicals that build up indoors that
> you should not be breathing on a regular basis.
>
> Obviously not all businesses will "do whatever" but enough will do
> things they shouldn't to make a buck. To not regulate businesses,
> and expect them to be angels, seems naive. Protecting people's
> health will save society money in the long run, and reduce the
> chances of people suffering disease from the indoor air they breath.
>
> Set indoor air quality standards, and let businesses try to meet
> them without taking away what may be a vital part of their livelihood.
>
> Garrett Clevenger
>
>
> From: Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com>
> To: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 7:01:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Garrett Clevenger<garrettmc at verizon.net
> > wrote:
> > My point is government regulates nuisances.
> You bet it regulates nuisances. Public nuisances, for the most part.
> I am against the gov't coming onto private property and regulating
> against behavior that is not generally deemed illegal. If the gov't
> can regulate behavior on your neighbors property, they will soon be
> doing the same to you.
>
> Like it or not, smoking is not a criminal behavior.
>
> >Second hand smoke is a nuisance.
> > It is noxious. It's poison. Businesses should not be allowed to
> expose
> > people to it, and other noxious compounds, unreasonably.
> Obviously our definition of unreasonable behavior is different. The
> businesses do not force you to enter and breathe the smoke anymore
> then they force you to drink. You make the choice to go into the
> smoke filled environment. Drinking also has very negative secondary
> consequences (behavior, driving, birth defects). By your logic this
> should also be banned. Wait. We tried that. Didn't work very well.
>
> > It's an epic struggle trying to regulate businesses. They want the
> right to
> > do whatever.
> Businesses don't want the right to do whatever. They want to be able
> to make a profit. There is a big difference. If a behavior is
> hurting business, they will generally refrain from it.
>
> > The people they affect want protection. Regulating smoking is
> > no different than regulating any other crap a business produces as a
> > by-product of its profit.
> Agreed. Lets take filling stations as an example. We all agree it is
> bad to pollute our environment with gas spills. Thus they are
> regulated so that certain precautions and remediations are in place.
> This law isn't regulating smoking in the business. A regulating law
> would require air cleaners or the like. This is forbidding it. Big
> difference.
>
> > Of course I have a right to not patronize these businesses. I also
> have the
> > right to expect government to be consistent.
> If you expect consistency from the government you are in for a long
> wait. We can work towards it, but our laws are to complex to ever
> achieve it.
>
> > If it can regulate what you see
> > (boobies) and what you hear (that's up to a cop) it should
> regulate what you
> > breath.
> Actually our Gov't does have clean air standards. They apply to
> outdoors. I.E. the public. Not to places a person chooses to go.
>
> >This world would become an ashtray quicker than it would otherwise.
> > Free speech trumps the right of smokers. If we can have a
> draconian noise
> > ordinance, we can have a smoking ban.
> And you talk about needing consistency? Weren't you rather
> passionately against the noise ordinance?
> The fact that we already have bad laws on the books does not mean we
> need more.
>
> > But my initial point was it's not about smoke, its about indoor
> air quality
> > in general, and I would rather see those regulations than a
> smoking ban. I
> > agree that, once again, the council didn't put time in to ensuring
> that this
> > works for more people than it may now.
> > Take a deeeeep breath...
> Actually I'd rather not take a deep breath in a number of the
> establishments I've been defending. I may be against the ban, but
> that doesn't mean I like second hand smoke.
>
> >
> > Garrett Clevenger
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com>
> > To: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:49:19 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
> >
> > Garrett:
> >
> > Your points below are so illogical it is almost funny. Allow me to
> > address them.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Garrett Clevenger<garrettmc at verizon.net
> >
> > wrote:
> >> Yeah, and you wouldn't have to patronize a nude bar, but that's
> illegal
> >> too.
> > That's illogical: Smoking isn't illegal.
> >> Businesses are regulated precisely because some people will do
> anything to
> >> make money.
> > That's logical and true.
> >> Do you think it should just be a free-for-all, with no
> >> regulations what-so-ever?
> > That's illogical. This isn't a zero-sum game. We can and do have
> > proper regulation of businesses. I think people should be able to
> > offer things that are generally considered legal (such as smoking)
> in
> > their own businesses.
> >> I don't think business owners have a right to subject their
> employees and
> >> patrons to known contaminants, just like they shouldn't be able
> to dump
> >> their crap out the back door for others to deal with.
> > That's illogical: Illegal dumping and known contaminants are two
> > separate issues. One happens on ones own private property, the
> other
> > in a public thoroughfare.
> > It is also illogical because, of course, businesses don't have a
> right
> > to subject people to noxious substances. That would imply people
> had
> > no choice but to subject themselves to those substances. They do.
> > They have a choice of where to work and what to patronize.
> >>
> >> Garrett Clevenger
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com>
> >> To: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> >> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 4:45:08 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
> >>
> >> Since you don't HAVE to patronize it, it seems to me that the
> business
> >> owners right to operate their establishment as they see fit
> trumps all
> >> other rights.
> >>
> >> As I've said before, Welcome to Moscow. Home of Big Mother.
> >>
> >>
> >>>It seems my right to breath clean air trumps another's right to
> >>> pollute it, just like my right to quiet trumps the right of the
> band next
> >>> door to play loud all night long...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Garrett Clevenger
> >>>
> >>> =======================================================
> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>> =======================================================
> >>>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20090722/f6acf54e/attachment-0001.html
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list