[Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality

[Darrell Keim]

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Garrett Clevenger<garrettmc at verizon.net> wrote:
> My point is government regulates nuisances.
You bet it regulates nuisances.  Public nuisances, for the most part.
I am against the gov't coming onto private property and regulating
against behavior that is not generally deemed illegal.  If the gov't
can regulate behavior on your neighbors property, they will soon be
doing the same to you.

Like it or not, smoking is not a criminal behavior.

>Second hand smoke is a nuisance.
> It is noxious. It's poison. Businesses should not be allowed to expose
> people to it, and other noxious compounds, unreasonably.
Obviously our definition of unreasonable behavior is different.  The
businesses do not force you to enter and breathe the smoke anymore
then they force you to drink.  You make the choice to go into the
smoke filled environment.  Drinking also has very negative secondary
consequences (behavior, driving, birth defects).  By your logic this
should also be banned.  Wait.  We tried that.  Didn't work very well.

> It's an epic struggle trying to regulate businesses. They want the right to
> do whatever.
Businesses don't want the right to do whatever.  They want to be able
to make a profit.  There is a big difference.  If a behavior is
hurting business, they will generally refrain from it.

> The people they affect want protection. Regulating smoking is
> no different than regulating any other crap a business produces as a
> by-product of its profit.
Agreed.  Lets take filling stations as an example.  We all agree it is
bad to pollute our environment with gas spills.  Thus they are
regulated so that certain precautions and remediations are in place.
This law isn't regulating smoking in the business.  A regulating law
would require air cleaners or the like.  This is forbidding it.  Big
difference.

> Of course I have a right to not patronize these businesses. I also have the
> right to expect government to be consistent.
If you expect consistency from the government you are in for a long
wait.  We can work towards it, but our laws are to complex to ever
achieve it.

> If it can regulate what you see
> (boobies) and what you hear (that's up to a cop) it should regulate what you
> breath.
Actually our Gov't does have clean air standards.  They apply to
outdoors.  I.E. the public.  Not to places a person chooses to go.

>This world would become an ashtray quicker than it would otherwise.
> Free speech trumps the right of smokers. If we can have a draconian noise
> ordinance, we can have a smoking ban.
And you talk about needing consistency?  Weren't you rather
passionately against the noise ordinance?
The fact that we already have bad laws on the books does not mean we
need more.

> But my initial point was it's not about smoke, its about indoor air quality
> in general, and I would rather see those regulations than a smoking ban. I
> agree that, once again, the council didn't put time in to ensuring that this
> works for more people than it may now.
> Take a deeeeep breath...
Actually I'd rather not take a deep breath in a number of the
establishments I've been defending.  I may be against the ban, but
that doesn't mean I like second hand smoke.

>
> Garrett Clevenger
>
> ________________________________
> From: Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com>
> To: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:49:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
>
> Garrett:
>
> Your points below are so illogical it is almost funny.  Allow me to
> address them.
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Garrett Clevenger<garrettmc at verizon.net>
> wrote:
>> Yeah, and you wouldn't have to patronize a nude bar, but that's illegal
>> too.
> That's illogical:  Smoking isn't illegal.
>> Businesses are regulated precisely because some people will do anything to
>> make money.
> That's logical and true.
>> Do you think it should just be a free-for-all, with no
>> regulations what-so-ever?
> That's illogical.  This isn't a zero-sum game.  We can and do have
> proper regulation of businesses.  I think people should be able to
> offer things that are generally considered legal (such as smoking) in
> their own businesses.
>> I don't think business owners have a right to subject their employees and
>> patrons to known contaminants, just like they shouldn't be able to dump
>> their crap out the back door for others to deal with.
> That's illogical:  Illegal dumping and known contaminants are two
> separate issues.  One happens on ones own private property, the other
> in a public thoroughfare.
> It is also illogical because, of course, businesses don't have a right
> to subject people to noxious substances.  That would imply people had
> no choice but to subject themselves to those substances.  They do.
> They have a choice of where to work and what to patronize.
>>
>> Garrett Clevenger
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com>
>> To: Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 4:45:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Indoor Air Quality
>>
>> Since you don't HAVE to patronize it, it seems to me that the business
>> owners right to operate their establishment as they see fit trumps all
>> other rights.
>>
>> As I've said before, Welcome to Moscow.  Home of Big Mother.
>>
>>
>>>It seems my right to breath clean air trumps another's right to
>>> pollute it, just like my right to quiet trumps the right of the band next
>>> door to play loud all night long...
>>>
>>>
>>> Garrett Clevenger
>>>
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