[Vision2020] An open letter to Moscow city council
Wayne Price
bear at moscow.com
Wed Jul 15 20:35:51 PDT 2009
Joe,
Agree that it IS an empirical issue.
Lets see, Eisenhower, who warned us about the Military-Industrial
complex, (advice which we have ignored and has gotten us into our
current mess), didn't do badly. Neither did George Marshall to just
name two.
To go farther, I'd need to know the parameters. Just US military
figures? Last 100 years?
As to earlier, most all of the "founding fathers" had some type of
military service, and it was those founding fathers that believed in
a "citizen army" as opposed to a paid expeditionary force. The
American way of war has traditionally been that when the country goes
to war, the entire country gears up and goes to war, not just the
volunteer military. The key to the American way of war is total war
with everyone involved and we go in swinging and get out. The goal of
a citizen army is to get back home, not to keep the conflict going for
advancement and profit, which is what we have now. It's not good
business for the war to be over quickly now, thats one of the reasons
we have been involved in Iraq and Afghanistan now longer than we were
in WWII
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jul 15, 2009, at 8:10 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
> This is an empirical issue. How have military leaders, or those who
> have served, done as political leaders?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 15, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com> wrote:
>
>> Sue,
>>
>> You don't see a connection between exercising power and earning the
>> right to exercise power in service to your country?
>>
>> And while it has nothing to do with the smoking issue per say, it has
>> everything to do with qualifications to exercise power.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> On Jul 15, 2009, at 6:42 PM, Sue Hovey wrote:
>>
>>> Then I owe Tom an apology. And I do apologize, Tom. When I read
>>> the emails, I did not see the W below the message and simply
>>> inferred it was Tom's response. It was to you, Bear, I should have
>>> sent my reply. And so I do that now. You tie legitimacy to make a
>>> decision to "give up rights" as valid only if the policy maker has
>>> fought for those rights as a military veteran. The Roderick email
>>> certainly sends the same message. If a person is not supposed to
>>> draw that inference then I see no reason for either you or the
>>> Rodericks to bring into play the issue of veteran status.
>>>
>>> Sue
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <bear at moscow.com>
>>> To: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>
>>> Cc: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>; "Shelley Roderick" <cjsnightclub at cableone.net
>>>> ; "v2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 11:52 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An open letter to Moscow city council
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sue,
>>>>
>>>> Tom wasn't the one who asked about the veteran status of the
>>>> current
>>>> council, I did, and Dan Carscallen answered me and said that 2 of
>>>> the
>>>> current members are and that he's not one of the two. Wayne Krauss
>>>> is one
>>>> of the two and lists it on his bio on the Moscow City Council site.
>>>>
>>>> And the reason I asked was to see if those so willing to give up
>>>> rights
>>>> and make the rules ever had to defend them. I think that it amazing
>>>> that
>>>> while I could get a cup of coffee and have a cigarette in Bosnia,
>>>> Bulgaria, Estonia, Poland, Romania, Albania and several other
>>>> countries, I
>>>> soon may not be able to in my own home town.
>>>>
>>>> Wayne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Are you saying that one has to be a veteran to make solid
>>>>> decisions? Or
>>>>> if
>>>>> one is not a veteran and makes a decision with which you do not
>>>>> agree,
>>>>> their
>>>>> decision is somehow less than valid because of their lack of
>>>>> veteran
>>>>> status?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sue H.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
>>>>> To: "Shelley Roderick" <cjsnightclub at cableone.net>
>>>>> Cc: "v2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 3:15 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An open letter to Moscow city council
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a simple question that deserves a simple, yet civil, answer
>>>>> like
>>>>> "yes" or "no".
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom - Why don't you call them and ask?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For those of you that wish to contact Moscow city council via
>>>>>> email,
>>>>>> here
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> how you can email all council members directly with only one
>>>>>> email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Go to: www.moscow.id.us/
>>>>>> 2) Click on the blue "council" tab.
>>>>>> 3) Click on "meet the council."
>>>>>> 4) Click on "Email all council members" at the bottom of the
>>>>>> page.
>>>>>> 5) To be valid, include your full name and address for the
>>>>>> record.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Tom Hansen
>>>>>> Date: 7/14/2009 3:02:03 PM
>>>>>> To: bear at moscow.com
>>>>>> Cc: v2020
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An open letter to Moscow city council
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Was this email really sent to the city council?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only address on it is Vision 2020.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>>>> Moscoa, Idaho
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visionaries,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with Phil's letter below, and am hoping the listees can
>>>>>>> give me
>>>>>>> some information in regards to it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How many members of the current administration are veterans?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> W
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> ----------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ATTENTION: YOU ARE ENTERING A SMOKE FILLED ENVIRONMENT AND WILL
>>>>>>>> BE
>>>>>>>> SUBJECT
>>>>>>>> TO SECOND HAND SMOKE! ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK! THIS
>>>>>>>> ESTABLISHMENT COULD
>>>>>>>> BE
>>>>>>>> HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Twenty generations have sacrificed loved ones to fight for the
>>>>>>>> freedoms
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> which we are able to enjoy today. It is very sad to me when a
>>>>>>>> small
>>>>>>>> handful
>>>>>>>> of people representing our city can take the blood that was
>>>>>>>> shed and
>>>>>>>> ignore
>>>>>>>> the sacrifices made to insure our right to, "life, liberty and
>>>>>>>> happiness."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have flown an American flag on my building since I bought it
>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> respect the blood, sweat and tears that allow me to do so. The
>>>>>>>> city
>>>>>>>> council
>>>>>>>> should also respect and honor the same.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The city should agree with the Federal Government that when a
>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>> turns
>>>>>>>> the age of 21, they have a mental capacity to make sound
>>>>>>>> decisions and
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> be held responsible for those decisions in a court of law. This
>>>>>>>> includes
>>>>>>>> their health. The city should not impose their "personal
>>>>>>>> guidance" to
>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>> who have just obtained the privilege of choice. They do not
>>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>>> baby
>>>>>>>> sit
>>>>>>>> However, they should be babysitting where smoking is allowed.
>>>>>>>> Where
>>>>>>>> children walk our sidewalks and play in city parks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In regards to "employee health," No one is forced to work in a
>>>>>>>> smoked
>>>>>>>> filled
>>>>>>>> environment. They came looking for a job. If they find it is
>>>>>>>> not for
>>>>>>>> them,
>>>>>>>> they have the right of freedom to work elsewhere. The customer
>>>>>>>> has a
>>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>> to walk in my doors, or not. They even have the right to leave
>>>>>>>> once
>>>>>>>> inside.
>>>>>>>> Liberty of choice and free will granted to us from the blood of
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> forefathers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The first thing I see when I walk into city hall is a United
>>>>>>>> States
>>>>>>>> flag.
>>>>>>>> The last thing I see when I leave city hall is a United States
>>>>>>>> flag.
>>>>>>>> Let's
>>>>>>>> not loose what that flag stands for.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the city agrees to this smoking ban I would like to suggest
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> consider an ordinance stopping the farmers from farming as it
>>>>>>>> blows
>>>>>>>> dust
>>>>>>>> that I breathe that causes my asthma to flare up. Talk about a
>>>>>>>> health
>>>>>>>> issue!
>>>>>>>> How about bringing it up to vote when approximately 60% of
>>>>>>>> Moscow's
>>>>>>>> citizens
>>>>>>>> are back in town? Let the citizens of Moscow decide. Give them
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> opportunity to voice an opinion on their own freedoms and
>>>>>>>> liberties.
>>>>>>>> Let
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> majority decide. Not a handful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1/3 of the bars in Moscow are non-smoking by choice. The city
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> interfere with the liberties of other bars and private clubs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You ask why other bar owners are not speaking up? How about
>>>>>>>> listening
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> ones that are. I believe in fighting for the rights and
>>>>>>>> liberties of
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> 24
>>>>>>>> employees and thousands of customers that choose to walk
>>>>>>>> through my
>>>>>>>> doors.
>>>>>>>> They count on me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill Parks, who introduced this ordinance states, "it is a work
>>>>>>>> place,
>>>>>>>> health issue. The only place we allow really dangerous things
>>>>>>>> is in
>>>>>>>> second
>>>>>>>> hand smoke." Well, how about coal mines? Gas refineries?
>>>>>>>> Plastic
>>>>>>>> manufacturers? Paint fumes? As I understand, his company
>>>>>>>> manufactures
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> builds thing in Mexico. He pays his workers in pesos. Why isn't
>>>>>>>> Moscow
>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>> enough for him to employ and manufacture his wares here? Could
>>>>>>>> it be
>>>>>>>> government enforced workman's comp? Minimum wage? Social
>>>>>>>> Security
>>>>>>>> taxes?
>>>>>>>> Not
>>>>>>>> to forget the OSHA laws which are not enforced in Mexico? Why
>>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>>> Parks
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> you choose to have your companies in Mexico? I can tell you
>>>>>>>> why I
>>>>>>>> choose
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> have mine in Moscow, Idaho.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The chains of slavery on business were cut in 1776. Let's not
>>>>>>>> put them
>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>> on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let freedom ring.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Phil Roderick
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cjs
>>>>>>>> @turbonet
>>>>>>>> .com=======================================================
>>>>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects
>>>>>> it to
>>>>>> change
>>>>>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Unknown
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it
>>>>> to change
>>>>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."
>>>>>
>>>>> - Unknown
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>
>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
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