[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work

[Garrett Clevenger]

I'll assume we both want the same thing: to be safe and secure. While we both may think the other is making that more improbable, I hope we agree that that's not our intent.

I'm no expert, and I don't guarantee my suggestions would solve the problems, but I think they would help on top of the arsenal already in place, the ones you suggest. The status quo, though, may lead to bankruptcy, both financial and moral, so I'm not sure that's worth the cost in the long run as it's currently unfolding.

I'm sure there are others who have laid out a more comprehensive way of helping bring peace, but in no particular order, here are some things I recommend, some of which I wrote previously:

Form a committee to investigate 911. Now that Bucheney's admin is gone, there is less conflict of interest, and more probability of uncovering things that many now find suspicious. If discrepancies are sincerely addressed, it would add morale to our military, which has suffered tremendously under Bucheney. If people remain suspicious, recruitment will remain low, and you won't have the support needed to fully engage the issue. Now, you have more and more soldiers who feel they were used, and a record number of them commiting suicide, a big sign that something is wrong.

I know there are some on this list who initially supported the war of terror, but who lost faith due to Bucheney's misleadership. Those of us who were once in the minority opposing the Iraq war now have the majority, because most now see that 911 was used to advance an imperial agenda that the neocons had promoted pre-911. And that view is held world-wide, meaning people don't trust the US to sincerely be concerned with solving the terror issue. By addressing the 911 issue fully, we'll probably gain more support. Both Bush and Cheney need to testify, and this time under oath.

We need to acknowledge mistakes were made, and that the US is guilty of terror, too. What else was "Shock and Awe" if not to instill terror? Otherwise, we are seen as hypocrites, and we won't have the support needed worldwide.

We need to reduce our consumption of foreign oil. This is something every one of us can do, and that starts with reducing buying things that need more fuel to get them to their destination, and supporting local economies. From my perspective, support your local farmer for starters.

We need to be consistent in opposing things counter to our values. If we don't want Sharia law, we shouldn't want other religious based laws, which include those that don't allow some to marry another person they wish to dedicate their life to. They fact that the Bible is used to prevent gays from marrying one another shows that many Americans don't respect the 1st Amendment, and that they want to push their religious views on everybody. The only difference betweem Islamic and Christian fanatics is the degree of repression expected. That being the case, it is obvious that most of this is a religious war.

Therefore, we need to not name our weapons in biblical terms. We need to make sure our generals are not calling the war a crusade. Otherwise, some soldiers make it a religious war, which seems to me to be no better than militant Islamists who think they are doing God's will.

It's apparent, though, that end-timers are big pushers of the war, seeing as they believe the Rapture is imminent. They are willing to wage a holy war, believing Jesus will return and hold everybody accountable. That is ridiculous, and counter-productive. It seems they want a self-fullfilling prophecy, not to stop terrorism, while the rest of us be damned. There doesn't seem to be much diffenence between a suicide bomber who expects to be greeted by 1000 virgins, and an end-timer pushing the war for Armageddon, expecting to go to heaven. They sound like the same place to me;)

Which brings us to Israel, a country created in the middle of the "Holy Land." Our unconditional support of a country willing to drop tons of cluster bombs on kids is wrong. I don't value an Israeli any more than a Palestinian, an Iranian, or any body. All humans have an inherent worth, and by the US giving Israel tens of billions of dollars each year, weapons and war craft, and carte blanche to do whatever they will, is short-sighted when it's obvious that power is used to kill innocents.

Which brings us to those that don't think Israel should exist. We need to have high level talks with our enemies. Bush was not wise in refusing to dialog with Ahmadinejad. That showed stubbornness, and lack of intellect, and only further isolated Iran. They have every right to be interested in the future of Iraq, as they are next door neighbors. It seems reasonable to talk with them about that and other issues, to find common ground, and to compromise if needed.

I agree this is a long-term problem. Therefore, we need to insure our kids are educated, not just babysat in school. We need to build more schools and pay our teachers more, as they are the ones who are helping insure our kids are taught to be rational, to understand science, to appreciate learning, etc. We need to keep religion out of schools, because blind faith in a book written eons ago is what fuels religious fanaticism, which seems to be a root cause of some's desire to repress others.

We need to honor those who are willing to engage in the war zone without the protection of weapons. The courageous doctors and others who go there to try to help the people should be given more support, as this kind of soft policy is probably in the long run going to insure that other people don't hate all Americans, and therefore will help promote peace among their own people. That won't happen, though, if more and more suffer at the hand of military might.

I don't think fighting terrorists is our main problem. We are facing global ecosystem collapse due to too many people using too many resources, and polluting the very things we need to survive, so we need to put the war of terror in context of inevitable threats to our well-being. The good thing is, these problems have common solutions, but they require rational minds making decisions based on understanding that all our actions have consequences, and that we have a common cause to work towards: creating a sustainable society not based on exploitation of others.

It very well be that we are too far gone to stop the violence, as there is too much hatred, to much fanaticism, and too many weapons in the hands of people willing to use them. I agree with you, though, that we need to pray for a better world, as holding in our mind the vision of a future where we all are safe and secure in all regards is good, as long as we realize that we all are responsible for seeing that through. We can't rely on the government or the church to be the sole arbitrator of our well-being.

Which means, we all should be doing what we can to promote peace, not just laying the sacrifice on our soldiers.

gclev


--- On Thu, 2/26/09, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> To: garrettmc at verizon.net, "Chasuk" <chasuk at gmail.com>
> Cc: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 11:22 AM
> Complete extermination of the enemy WOULD be my first choice
> but I do realize the difficulty that entails.
> 
> My alternate, more realistic, solution, such as it is,
> would be for us to be vigilant, root out leaders, bases, and
> training areas as best we can and destroy them. Identify
> funding sources and communication pathways and choke them
> off. Help Iraq become a 21st century republic. Try and help
> Afghanistan into becoming at least a peaceful 19th century
> functioning oligarchy. Do our best to encourage more
> peaceful/less radical Muslim nations to do more to help and
> pray God for improvement over time. I really don't
> foresee the problem going away entirely but I do believe
> that we can make the job description of radical islamic
> terrorist more dangerous and unappealing than other more
> productive pursuits.
> 
> Now, how about you? Let's hear a few specifics of your
> plan that aren't your generic Rodney King plaintive plea
> for peace. Should we apologize for putting the world trade
> towers, the USS Cole, and misc. embassies in the path of
> terrorist attack and offer to pay billions in
> reparations/ransom? (I doubt it would help, who do we pay
> off ?) Should we abandon Israel? (I doubt it would make any
> difference, Israelis have a silly notion that they have a
> right to live) Abandon our interests in the region? (I doubt
> it would help as without western help most of these nations
> economies would grind to a halt) Not allow US culture to
> seep into the region? (I doubt it would help, the genii is
> already out of that bottle)
> 
> Now, lets hear your specific solution.
> 
> g
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Garrett Clevenger"
> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> To: "Chasuk" <chasuk at gmail.com>; "g.
> crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> Cc: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> 
> 
> > What's your answer, g, to how we are going to win
> this war? Is it complete extermination of the enemy? Do you
> really foresee this ending? Or is the final solution when
> all of us are dead, ala mutual assured destruction?
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, g. crabtree
> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations
> work
> >> To: "Chasuk" <chasuk at gmail.com>,
> garrettmc at verizon.net
> >> Cc: "vision 2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 7:44 AM
> >> "So, instead of continuing to manufacture
> martyrs and
> >> terrorists, I
> >> suggest that we master the techniques of apology
> and
> >> submission,
> >> otherwise known as compromise, dialogue, and
> honest, mutual
> >> sacrifice."
> >> 
> >> While I am extremely sceptical that martyrs and
> terrorists
> >> are, in any meaningful way, manufactured by us
> except for in
> >> as much as we exist, why don't you run down
> the
> >> solutions for me.
> >> 
> >> Apology is easy. Obama has proven that he can tell
> any bald
> >> faced lie and sell it like a Fuller brush man. An
> insincere
> >> I'm sorry should be no trouble at all.
> >> 
> >> Submission is where it becomes a little more
> interesting.
> >> What compromise should we be willing to make? How
> about no
> >> US presence in the middle east? Abandon our
> legitimate
> >> interests to our great detriment and bolt. How
> about
> >> allowing sharia to become the law of the land?
> Perhaps get
> >> our women back under control and under the veil?
> I'm
> >> thinking there could be a few problems with these
> >> "compromises."
> >> 
> >> Dialogue. Now that should be easy but, with who?
> Osama
> >> perhaps? How about Maulana Masood Azhar, Mahmoud
> >> Ahmadinejad, Omar Abdel-Rahman, or Dr. Walid Ahmad
> Fitaihi.
> >> Which one of these nut jobs has the required suck
> to make
> >> any dialog meaningful?
> >> 
> >> And lastly the "honest mutual
> sacrifice." Would
> >> that be something like we throw Israel to the
> jackals and in
> >> return they stop cutting the heads off of innocent
> business
> >> men and journalists? How about we stop allowing
> our culture
> >> to spread to the rest of the world and they quit
> using
> >> retarded children, women, and cripples to blow up
> ice cream
> >> parlors?
> >> 
> >> So, what were you thinking would be the
> appropriate
> >> compromises and sacrifices we should make to put
> an end to
> >> radical islamic extortion?
> >> 
> >> g
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From:
> "Chasuk"
> >> <chasuk at gmail.com>
> >> To: <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> >> Cc: "g. crabtree"
> <jampot at roadrunner.com>;
> >> "vision 2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 12:56 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations
> work
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 23:35, Garrett
> Clevenger
> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net> wrote:
> >> > 
> >> >> [Gary] end(s) writing, "I,
> Personally, refuse
> >> to apologize and I'm not to wild about
> submission,
> >> conversion is out of the question, and when it
> comes to
> >> death I figure better them then me. Call me
> crazy."
> >> > 
> >> >> That's not crazy, as we all feel it.
> >> That's what's driving the whole insanity,
> though,
> >> and all the bombs and blood spilt's not going
> to change
> >> it. Which leads me to conclude we're creating
> our own
> >> hell, which is quite ironic.
> >> > 
> >> > I have agreed with most of what you have
> written,
> >> Garrett, but I
> >> > disagree here.  I, for one, don't
> "feel
> >> it."
> >> > 
> >> > I sometimes apologize even when it isn't
> entirely
> >> heartfelt.  Usually,
> >> > my apology is reciprocated, and we both end
> up feeling
> >> better, and
> >> > more amenable to compromise and dialogue. 
> Obviously,
> >> apology is not
> >> > always a solution, but there is nothing
> intrinsically
> >> evil or cowardly
> >> > about it.
> >> > 
> >> > Submission is something that we all do every
> day of
> >> our lives, whether
> >> > we are children or adults.  We do if we want
> our
> >> relationships to be
> >> > successful, that is.  Husbands submit to
> their wives,
> >> and wives to
> >> > their husbands.  It isn't a sign of
> weakness, it
> >> is acknowledging that
> >> > we each have a right to boundaries that must
> be
> >> respected.  Groveling
> >> > isn't necessary.  When we submit to each
> >> other's boundaries, we
> >> > demonstrate that that the relationship is
> important
> >> enough to us that
> >> > we are willing to make sacrifices to make it
> work.
> >> > 
> >> > Islam has historically been very tolerant of
> other
> >> faiths.  Conversion
> >> > usually isn't expected or required.  Yes,
> we are
> >> talking about
> >> > extremists, but it is our annihilation that
> is their
> >> goal, rather than
> >> > our conversion,  which brings us to the final
> point...
> >> > 
> >> > Death isn't scary to a martyr, especially
> if their
> >> martyrdom results
> >> > in the simultaneous death of infidels,
> preferably many
> >> at the same
> >> > time.  Martyrs are like roosters in the hen
> house.  It
> >> only takes one
> >> > to fertilize an awful lot of chickens, and
> one martyr
> >> to kill an awful
> >> > lot of us.
> >> > 
> >> > Martyrs are far more tenacious than roosters,
> so
> >> exterminating them
> >> > all is unlikely, unless we make it US policy
> to engage
> >> in holy war and
> >> > genocide.  Personally, I'm voting against
> a US
> >> jihad.
> >> > 
> >> > So, instead of continuing to manufacture
> martyrs and
> >> terrorists, I
> >> > suggest that we master the techniques of
> apology and
> >> submission,
> >> > otherwise known as compromise, dialogue, and
> honest,
> >> mutual sacrifice.
> >> > 
> >> > Chas
> >> >
> >