[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work

[lfalen]

That all depend on the circumstances. If it were unprovoked and served no perpose, I would be mad. If it was an accident or served a higher purpose I  would forgive. For instances, during the second world war a norwegian team blew up a ship containing a shipment of heavy water, that was being shipped to Bavaria for the development of an A-bomb. They knew that there were Norwegian civilian women and children on board and that there was no way to warn them. They blew it up anyway which prevented the Germans from developing the A-bomb. They were still heros to the Norwegians.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: Garrett Clevenger garrettmc at verizon.net
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:16:02 -0800
To: vision 2020 vision2020 at moscow.com,  lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work

> Roger,
> 
> I believe with a little bit of effort, we're all capable of empathy. I think that's important to understand motives of people we consider our enemy.
> 
> So if you wouldn't mind, could you please tell me how you would feel if you lived in a country where your child died as a result of a US bomb dropped on their head? Would you be able to forgive, or would you be mad as hell?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Garrett
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 2/24/09, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>, garrettmc at verizon.net, "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 1:59 PM
> > Thanks Gary
> > This was so far off the deep end, I  was not going to even
> > reply to it.
> > Roger
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: "g. crabtree" jampot at roadrunner.com
> > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:09:35 -0800
> > To: garrettmc at verizon.net,  "vision 2020"
> > vision2020 at moscow.com, "Sunil Ramalingam"
> > sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> > 
> > > "Is it so hard for you to admit that there is a
> > possibility that US policy
> > > has indeed created the very terrorists we are trying
> > to destroy? And I'm
> > > not talking about because they hate our freedom or
> > values, but because we
> > > have killed innocents as well..."
> > > 
> > > If I believed for one minute that it were true I
> > wouldn't. I believe that 
> > > the enemy
> > > we are at war with does in fact hate our freedoms and
> > values and resents its 
> > > own
> > > lack stature in the world, particularly in light of
> > what it sees as its 
> > > former glory.
> > > 
> > > If, as you claim, the terrorism we face today is
> > brought about by the 
> > > innocents
> > > who have died as a by product of US actions why do we
> > see no North American 
> > > indig
> > > terrorism? After WW I & II did we endure a rash of
> > Teutonic terrorism? 
> > > Radical Shinto
> > > terrorism? Vietnamese terrorism? Do you contend that
> > no innocents were 
> > > inadvertently
> > > killed during these conflicts? What is the difference
> > between then and now, 
> > > them and
> > > our current foes? Why did our actions then not give
> > rise to the same 
> > > terrorism we see now?
> > > 
> > > If this problem truly is all about "American
> > empire" why do bombs go off in 
> > > night clubs
> > > in Bali and subways in Spain? Why riots in France,
> > murders in the 
> > > Netherlands. European
> > > tourists murdered and maimed in Cairo. China is
> > experiencing problems with a 
> > > certain
> > > belligerent religious minority. Even the UK, a country
> > that bends over 
> > > backward to appease its
> > > malcontents is experiencing extreme unrest.
> > > 
> > > The inescapable conclusion a rational person will come
> > to is that militant 
> > > Islam and
> > > wahabaism are the common denominator and I firmly
> > believe that you can offer 
> > > up all
> > > the maudlin mea culpas and a truck load of tearful
> > apologies and it won't 
> > > reduce the
> > > terrorism one little bit. Even if we were to attempt
> > to placate them by 
> > > joining in with
> > > their unconscionable pogrom to eradicate Jews, their
> > goodwill (the aftermath 
> > > in Bosnia being a shining
> > > example of undying Islamic gratitude) would only last
> > until their goal had 
> > > been met and we would
> > > be back to the status quo of submit, convert, or die.
> > > 
> > > I, Personally, refuse to apologize and I'm not to
> > wild about submission,
> > > conversion is out of the question, and when it comes
> > to death I figure 
> > > better
> > > them then me. Call me crazy.
> > > 
> > > As-sallamu aleykum!
> > > g
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Garrett Clevenger"
> > <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > > To: "vision 2020"
> > <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Sunil Ramalingam" 
> > > <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; "g.
> > crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:18 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > You are correct, g, there are exceptions to any
> > rule. If someone were 
> > > > pointing a gun at someone I love, I wouldn't
> > hesitate to do what is 
> > > > necessary to insure their survival. Yes, there
> > are bad people who probably 
> > > > should be culled out.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, national defense does require the
> > use of the same force in 
> > > > certain circumstances. As I didn't want to
> > subject this list to more 
> > > > cataloging than I've already inputed, I
> > suppose my lack of specifics may 
> > > > lead some to believe I believe otherwise. In your
> > wisdom, you point out 
> > > > that my general argument is not universal.
> > > >
> > > > That's different than preemptively using such
> > force half way around the 
> > > > world based on false pretenses, particularly when
> > that argument can be 
> > > > used by the other side to strike first as well.
> > > >
> > > > The fact is, not only do we share similar
> > justification with the other 
> > > > side, the US is the one who has spent billions
> > more $$$, killed a lot more 
> > > > people and caused way more destruction than we
> > have received, while 
> > > > threatening our children's future with not
> > only the financial debt they'll 
> > > > incur, but the added seeds of resentment that
> > surely will keep the spiral 
> > > > rolling indefinitely.
> > > >
> > > > I hate calling that a war, because wars
> > eventually end.
> > > >
> > > > Is it so hard for you to admit that there is a
> > possibility that US policy 
> > > > has indeed created the very terrorists we are
> > trying to destroy? And I'm 
> > > > not talking about because they hate our freedom
> > or values, but because we 
> > > > have killed innocents as well...
> > > >
> > > > gclev
> > > >
> > > > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, g. crabtree
> > <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> From: g. crabtree
> > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> > interrogations work
> > > >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net, "vision
> > 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Sunil 
> > > >> Ramalingam"
> > <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > > >> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 7:27 AM
> > > >> The quote:
> > > >>
> > > >> " I imagine most of these acts are
> > > >>  consequences of the American Empire willing
> > to commit the
> > > >>  same atrocities."
> > > >>
> > > >> I suppose the question is, the same as who,
> > The Girl
> > > >> Scouts? The Red Cross? It seems clear to me
> > that since the
> > > >> topic was terrorism and that among the
> > terrorists in
> > > >> question we find the taliban and al-qaeda at
> > the top of the
> > > >> list, there was no need for wild speculation
> > on my part.
> > > >>
> > > >> Moving on, "Anyone willing to kill for
> > their agenda is
> > > >> sick and should be treated. Perhaps a
> > lobotomy would be the
> > > >> cure, rather than killing them
> > outright?"
> > > >>
> > > >> I guess I have to assume that, considering
> > your moral
> > > >> equivalence position that you include US and
> > coalition
> > > >> troops in this group along with law
> > enforcement officials
> > > >> and anyone else who might be willing to use
> > ultimate
> > > >> measures to protect themselves or there loved
> > ones?
> > > >>
> > > >> There's going to be a dreadful dearth of
> > stimulating
> > > >> conversation in your little corner of Hell.
> > > >>
> > > >> g
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > >> From: "Garrett Clevenger"
> > > >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > > >> To: "vision 2020"
> > <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
> > > >> "Sunil Ramalingam"
> > > >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:25 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
> > interrogations work
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > Thanks, Sunil. I suppose we all read
> > between the lines
> > > >> in our interpretations of the limitation of
> > email
> > > >> conversation. Once we get hot-headed, that
> > interpretation
> > > >> probably is distorted even more so.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Obviously, moral equivalences are not so
> > much based on
> > > >> particular nationalities, but on the
> > individuals who act
> > > >> immoral.  Some in the US probably are the
> > moral equivalent
> > > >> of some members of the taliban or al qaeda.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Anyone willing to kill for their agenda
> > is sick and
> > > >> should be treated. Perhaps a lobotomy would
> > be the cure,
> > > >> rather than killing them outright?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > gclev
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Sunil Ramalingam
> > > >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> From: Sunil Ramalingam
> > > >> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > > >> >> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Humane
> > interrogations
> > > >> work
> > > >> >> To: jampot at roadrunner.com,
> > garrettmc at verizon.net,
> > > >> "vision 2020"
> > <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >> >> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009,
> > 9:35 PM
> > > >> >> I don't think Garrett made the
> > claim you
> > > >> attribute to
> > > >> >> him, and you're speculating
> > wildly in claiming
> > > >> he
> > > >> >> believes what you write below.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Do you really think that dropping
> > bombs on cities
> > > >> has some
> > > >> >> moral superiority over
> > 'terrorism?'  Are
> > > >> those
> > > >> >> victims any less dead?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Sunil
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> > From: jampot at roadrunner.com
> > > >> >> > To: garrettmc at verizon.net;
> > > >> vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> >> > Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:29:11
> > -0800
> > > >> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
> > Humane
> > > >> interrogations work
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Take from my response anything
> > you like.
> > > >> It's
> > > >> >> definitely not that I have no
> > > >> >> > argument with your diatribe,
> > it's just
> > > >> that I see
> > > >> >> little point in trying to
> > > >> >> > have a discussion with anyone
> > who actually
> > > >> believes
> > > >> >> that the USA is the
> > > >> >> > moral equivalent of al-qaeda or
> > the taliban.
> > > >> If
> > > >> >> that's the world you live in
> > > >> >> > I feel sorry for you but I
> > really don't
> > > >> believe
> > > >> >> there is any common ground
> > > >> >> > from which to move this dialog
> > forward. As
> > > >> for your
> > > >> >> infernal living
> > > >> >> > arrangements, again my
> > sympathies but I'm
> > > >> afraid I
> > > >> >> can accept no
> > > >> >> > responsibility for where you
> > choose to
> > > >> reside.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > g
> > > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > >> >> > From: "Garrett
> > Clevenger"
> > > >> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > > >> >> > To:
> > <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "g.
> > > >> >> crabtree"
> > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > >> >> > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009
> > 5:49 PM
> > > >> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
> > Humane
> > > >> interrogations work
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > > I'll take it from your
> > snide
> > > >> response, g,
> > > >> >> that you have no argument
> > > >> >> > > against my diatribe.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > You did prove
> > Donovan's point,
> > > >> though, that
> > > >> >> some poeple just can't be
> > > >> >> > > reasoned with, and my
> > point, due to
> > > >> this, that
> > > >> >> perhaps we are condemned to
> > > >> >> > > live in Hell.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > Congratulation's on
> > helping keep the
> > > >> ball
> > > >> >> rolling...
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > gclev
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, g.
> > crabtree
> > > >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > >> From: g. crabtree
> > > >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > >> >> > >> Subject: Re:
> > [Vision2020] Humane
> > > >> >> interrogations work
> > > >> >> > >> To:
> > garrettmc at verizon.net,
> > > >> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> >> > >> Date: Sunday, February
> > 22, 2009,
> > > >> 12:25 PM
> > > >> >> > >> "I imagine most
> > of these acts
> > > >> are
> > > >> >> consequences of the
> > > >> >> > >> American Empire
> > willing to commit
> > > >> the same
> > > >> >> atrocities."
> > > >> >> > >>
> > > >> >> > >> I'm thinking not
> > so much a book
> > > >> as a tool
> > > >> >> catalog.
> > > >> >> > >>
> > > >> >> > >> As the Ham-ster would
> > say "nuff
> > > >> >> said."
> > > >> >> > >>
> > > >> >> > >> g
> > > >> >> > >>
> > > >> >> > >> ----- Original Message
> > ----- From:
> > > >> >> "Garrett
> > > >> >> > >> Clevenger"
> > > >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > > >> >> > >> To:
> > <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
> > > >> "g.
> > > >> >> crabtree"
> > > >> >> > >>
> > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > >> >> > >> Sent: Saturday,
> > February 21, 2009
> > > >> 7:53 PM
> > > >> >> > >> Subject: Re:
> > [Vision2020] Humane
> > > >> >> interrogations work
> > > >> >> > >>
> > > >> >> > >>
> > > >> >> > >> > I don't
> > condone the violent
> > > >> acts you
> > > >> >> mention,
> > > >> >> > >> either, whether
> > committed by suicide
> > > >> bombers,
> > > >> >> alleged
> > > >> >> > >> hijackers, or the
> > powers that be
> > > >> that distort
> > > >> >> truth for
> > > >> >> > >> their own agenda. I
> > imagine most of
> > > >> these
> > > >> >> acts are
> > > >> >> > >> consequences of the
> > American Empire
> > > >> willing
> > > >> >> to commit the
> > > >> >> > >> same atrocities.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > There may be some
> > imagined
> > > >> slights, but
> > > >> >> there are also
> > > >> >> > >> some very real
> > slights. History is
> > > >> replete
> > > >> >> with examples of
> > > >> >> > >> US policy directly
> > responsible for
> > > >> killing
> > > >> >> innocents. If
> > > >> >> > >> you're willing to
> > retaliate for
> > > >> feeling
> > > >> >> slighted, why
> > > >> >> > >> wouldn't your
> > supposed enemies,
> > > >> >> who've probably
> > > >> >> > >> witnessed more
> > bloodshed than
> > > >> hopefully
> > > >> >> we'll ever see,
> > > >> >> > >> want vengeance, too?
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > You're
> > probably aware of
> > > >> the US
> > > >> >> financial and
> > > >> >> > >> military support of
> > Saddam Hussein
> > > >> during the
> > > >> >> 80's. The
> > > >> >> > >> US backed Iraq in
> > their war against
> > > >> Iran,
> > > >> >> where a million or
> > > >> >> > >> so people were killed.
> > The US also
> > > >> knew
> > > >> >> Saddam was gassing
> > > >> >> > >> the Kurds, where,
> > guess what,
> > > >> innocent women,
> > > >> >> children and
> > > >> >> > >> men died of chemical
> > weapons. But
> > > >> apparently,
> > > >> >> the US
> > > >> >> > >> condoned Saddam's
> > actions.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > The Iranians
> > suffered under the
> > > >> Shaw, a
> > > >> >> dictator
> > > >> >> > >> propped up by the US.
> > The Saudis,
> > > >> too, suffer
> > > >> >> under the
> > > >> >> > >> Sauds, who the US is
> > willing to
> > > >> support to
> > > >> >> insure access to
> > > >> >> > >> oil, and military
> > bases.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > As for Osama, the
> > CIA trained
> > > >> and paid
> > > >> >> him and his
> > > >> >> > >> muhjadeen during the
> > Afghan war
> > > >> against the
> > > >> >> Soviets. So the
> > > >> >> > >> US is implicated in
> > the deaths they
> > > >> caused
> > > >> >> during that war,
> > > >> >> > >> as well.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > Those are only a
> > few of the
> > > >> reasons some
> > > >> >> people hate
> > > >> >> > >> the US and are trying
> > to bring it
> > > >> down, to
> > > >> >> hold its citizens
> > > >> >> > >> accountable, to make
> > us pay with
> > > >> similar
> > > >> >> heartache. It was
> > > >> >> > >> only a matter of time
> > before all
> > > >> that pent up
> > > >> >> anger would
> > > >> >> > >> make its way to the
> > US,
> > > >> unfortunately.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > It seems unfair
> > of you to be
> > > >> upset over
> > > >> >> the deaths of
> > > >> >> > >> Americans, but not of
> > other people
> > > >> who died
> > > >> >> as a result of
> > > >> >> > >> US policy. Personally,
> > I think all
> > > >> of these
> > > >> >> deaths are a
> > > >> >> > >> travesty.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > Nothing exist
> > inside a vacuum.
> > > >> Every
> > > >> >> bomb has a boom.
> > > >> >> > >> Every person who is
> > tortured brings
> > > >> us closer
> > > >> >> to our doom.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > All our values
> > will not save
> > > >> us. All our
> > > >> >> wealth is
> > > >> >> > >> valueless when we
> > become like our
> > > >> enemy and
> > > >> >> sell our souls
> > > >> >> > >> to oppress.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > We live in a
> > freer society than
> > > >> where
> > > >> >> the alleged
> > > >> >> > >> terrorist dwell. We
> > have access to
> > > >> more info,
> > > >> >> and the
> > > >> >> > >> ability to dissent.
> > These other folk
> > > >> have
> > > >> >> seen, and are
> > > >> >> > >> taught, how US policy
> > is
> > > >> hypocritical and
> > > >> >> leads to their
> > > >> >> > >> becoming second class
> > citizens. If I
> > > >> lived
> > > >> >> there and lost a
> > > >> >> > >> loved one due to the
> > US, I'd be
> > > >> pretty
> > > >> >> pissed, too. I
> > > >> >> > >> can empathize with
> > their frustration
> > > >> at what
> > > >> >> seems to be
> > > >> >> > >> policy designed to
> > enrich some in
> > > >> the US at
> > > >> >> the expense of
> > > >> >> > >> their well-being.
> > I'm actually
> > > >> surprised
> > > >> >> their isn't
> > > >> >> > >> more retaliation, but
> > maybe
> > > >> that's due to
> > > >> >> there being
> > > >> >> > >> more saner heads than
> > we know, or
> > > >> maybe due
> > > >> >> to increased
> > > >> >> > >> security.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > These
> > people's view of
> > > >> history,
> > > >> >> whether accurate
> > > >> >> > >> or not, becomes part
> > of their
> > > >> psyche. I can
> > > >> >> imagine how that
> > > >> >> > >> shapes their behavior
> > and view of
> > > >> the US.
> > > >> >> Since they live in
> > > >> >> > >> a more repressive
> > regime, it's a
> > > >> lot
> > > >> >> harder for them to
> > > >> >> > >> break the cycle of
> > hatred they have
> > > >> towards
> > > >> >> us. Since they
> > > >> >> > >> aren't as
> > comfortable, it's
> > > >> probably
> > > >> >> a lot harder
> > > >> >> > >> for them to keep their
> > cool. Those
> > > >> that are
> > > >> >> more tolerant
> > > >> >> > >> are probably
> > ostracized. The ones
> > > >> who
> > > >> >> retaliate against us
> > > >> >> > >> are revered. Thus,
> > natural selection
> > > >> leads to
> > > >> >> violence
> > > >> >> > >> against the US, and
> > themselves.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > I imagine there
> > are people over
> > > >> there
> > > >> >> like you who
> > > >> >> > >> rally others to act
> > violent. They
> > > >> probably
> > > >> >> say the same
> > > >> >> > >> thing you do, and so
> > people are
> > > >> enlisted into
> > > >> >> what means
> > > >> >> > >> they have of
> > retaliation. If China
> > > >> were
> > > >> >> taking over our
> > > >> >> > >> country with military
> > might instead
> > > >> of
> > > >> >> financially, perhaps
> > > >> >> > >> we'd have more
> > freedom fighters
> > > >> willing
> > > >> >> to kill and die
> > > >> >> > >> to protect our
> > homeland, and
> > > >> we'd have a
> > > >> >> better
> > > >> >> > >> understanding of why
> > some are
> > > >> willing to make
> > > >> >> the ultimate
> > > >> >> > >> sacrifice in what they
> > deem to be
> > > >> defense of
> > > >> >> their country.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > It's only
> > natural to want
> > > >> to protect
> > > >> >> what you
> > > >> >> > >> love. It's natural
> > to want to
> > > >> retaliate.
> > > >> >> > >> > It makes perfect
> > sense to me
> > > >> that
> > > >> >> violence begets
> > > >> >> > >> violence. We send our
> > soldiers
> > > >> there, who
> > > >> >> bomb and kill
> > > >> >> > >> innocent people, which
> > then leads to
> > > >> pissed
> > > >> >> off people who
> > > >> >> > >> want to bomb us back.
> > But that
> > > >> doesn't it
> > > >> >> make it right,
> > > >> >> > >> or in our best
> > interest. It just
> > > >> makes it
> > > >> >> look like
> > > >> >> > >> we're barbarians.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > The war of terror
> > the US is
> > > >> engaged in
> > > >> >> only seems to
> > > >> >> > >> promote further
> > violence, which
> > > >> means the war
> > > >> >> of terror
> > > >> >> > >> needs more money and
> > troops to fight
> > > >> that
> > > >> >> violence. It's
> > > >> >> > >> absurd to think we can
> > keep killing,
> > > >> >> torturing and bombing
> > > >> >> > >> our way out of this
> > mess, especially
> > > >> >> considering there is
> > > >> >> > >> historical
> > justification for people
> > > >> to be mad
> > > >> >> at us for us
> > > >> >> > >> letting our government
> > commit
> > > >> violence.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > By letting them
> > use our tax
> > > >> dollars,
> > > >> >> like it or not,
> > > >> >> > >> we are guilty of
> > killing people, and
> > > >> thus,
> > > >> >> there really are
> > > >> >> > >> no innocent people,
> > unless you are
> > > >> protesting
> > > >> >> and not paying
> > > >> >> > >> taxes. Since we are
> > freer, we're
> > > >> actually
> > > >> >> more guilty
> > > >> >> > >> than those in more
> > repressive
> > > >> regimes who
> > > >> >> have no means of
> > > >> >> > >> deposing of their
> > government. We do
> > > >> not have
> > > >> >> to be pawns in
> > > >> >> > >> the US empire. We do
> > not have to let
> > > >> them
> > > >> >> engage our
> > > >> >> > >> military in foreign
> > excursions that
> > > >> quite
> > > >> >> obviously are
> > > >> >> > >> mostly intended to
> > secure oil
> > > >> reserves.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > We've spent
> > hundreds of
> > > >> billions of
> > > >> >> dollars, lost
> > > >> >> > >> more Americans than
> > who died during
> > > >> the 911
> > > >> >> strikes, and
> > > >> >> > >> killed many, many tens
> > of thousands
> > > >> of
> > > >> >> innocent people in
> > > >> >> > >> our desire for
> > vengeance. For what?
> > > >> More
> > > >> >> hatred towards us,
> > > >> >> > >> more loss of lives,
> > and more
> > > >> indebtedness to
> > > >> >> fund this
> > > >> >> > >> folly.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > I'm able to
> > condemn all
> > > >> these acts
> > > >> >> of violence as
> > > >> >> > >> the same evil they
> > are: willing to
> > > >> kill for
> > > >> >> > >> self-righteousness.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > Admittedly, at
> > this point,
> > > >> there is no
> > > >> >> easy solution.
> > > >> >> > >> Considering we have a
> > hard time
> > > >> treating our
> > > >> >> own with
> > > >> >> > >> respect amongst our
> > different
> > > >> viewpoints,
> > > >> >> perhaps we're
> > > >> >> > >> condemned to live in
> > this hell. We
> > > >> all are
> > > >> >> animals
> > > >> >> > >> essentially controlled
> > by our
> > > >> emotions. Our
> > > >> >> higher being is
> > > >> >> > >> smothered by those who
> > want to lash
> > > >> out. We
> > > >> >> all have these
> > > >> >> > >> feelings, but we all
> > can be redeemed
> > > >> if
> > > >> >> we're courageous
> > > >> >> > >> enough to stand up to
> > the powers
> > > >> that be and
> > > >> >> say,
> > > >> >> > >> "Enough!"
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > For starters
> > though, we need to
> > > >> reign in
> > > >> >> the American
> > > >> >> > >> empire. We need to
> > hold Israel
> > > >> accountable
> > > >> >> for it's
> > > >> >> > >> double standards
> > against the
> > > >> Palestinians. We
> > > >> >> need to stop
> > > >> >> > >> supporting repressive
> > regimes. We
> > > >> need to
> > > >> >> have compassionate
> > > >> >> > >> policy that treats all
> > Earthlings
> > > >> with
> > > >> >> respect. We need to
> > > >> >> > >> take the higher ground
> > and say,
> > > >> >> "Sorry."
> > > >> >> > >> Reconciliation may
> > sound cheesy, but
> > > >> it goes
> > > >> >> a long way in
> > > >> >> > >> leading to forgiveness
> > for our
> > > >> trespasses.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > The other
> > alternative is to
> > > >> keep digging
> > > >> >> ourselves in
> > > >> >> > >> this hole of hatred,
> > which will lead
> > > >> to
> > > >> >> further acts that
> > > >> >> > >> we'll feel
> > we'll need to
> > > >> retaliate
> > > >> >> against, ad
> > > >> >> > >> nauseam.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > Corrosive
> > cynicism warmongers
> > > >> display
> > > >> >> certainly
> > > >> >> > >> isn't the answer.
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > Sorry for the
> > book. This
> > > >> definitely
> > > >> >> became longer than
> > > >> >> > >> intended...
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > Peace,
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > gclev
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> > --- On Sat,
> > 2/21/09, g.
> > > >> crabtree
> > > >> >> > >>
> > <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >> From: g.
> > crabtree
> > > >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > >> >> > >> >> Subject: Re:
> > [Vision2020]
> > > >> Humane
> > > >> >> interrogations
> > > >> >> > >> work
> > > >> >> > >> >> To:
> > garrettmc at verizon.net,
> > > >> >> vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> >> > >> >> Date:
> > Saturday, February
> > > >> 21, 2009,
> > > >> >> 3:21 PM
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > "Let's assume for
> > > >> a moment
> > > >> >> that
> > > >> >> > >> terrorists are not
> > > >> >> > >> >> cockroaches,
> > but humans who
> > > >> like you
> > > >> >> and I have
> > > >> >> > >> the same
> > > >> >> > >> >> emotions of
> > bitterness,
> > > >> anger and
> > > >> >> desire to
> > > >> >> > >> retaliate."
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> >> > >> >> Retaliate for
> > what? Sorry,
> > > >> but I
> > > >> >> can't even
> > > >> >> > >> begin to
> > > >> >> > >> >> imagine
> > flying jumbo jets
> > > >> into
> > > >> >> buildings full of
> > > >> >> > >> innocents
> > > >> >> > >> >> or strapping
> > on a bomb and
> > > >> going out
> > > >> >> and
> > > >> >> > >> deliberately
> > > >> >> > >> >> killing women
> > and children
> > > >> most of
> > > >> >> whom are my own
> > > >> >> > >> >> countrymen.
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> >> > >> >> "Why do
> > you think
> > > >> these people
> > > >> >> would commit
> > > >> >> > >> such
> > > >> >> > >> >> dastardly
> > deeds, willing to
> > > >> kill
> > > >> >> other people?
> > > >> >> > >> What
> > > >> >> > >> >> specifics
> > would drive these
> > > >> people
> > > >> >> to act
> > > >> >> > >> so?"
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> >> > >> >> According to
> > Osama
> > > >> Bin-Laden, the
> > > >> >> justification to
> > > >> >> > >> murder
> > > >> >> > >> >> nearly 3000
> > innocent men,
> > > >> women, and
> > > >> >> children was
> > > >> >> > >> that after
> > > >> >> > >> >> the first
> > gulf war we were
> > > >> not quick
> > > >> >> enough in
> > > >> >> > >> removing all
> > > >> >> > >> >> of our troops
> > from Saudi
> > > >> Arabia to
> > > >> >> suit his
> > > >> >> > >> tastes. Never
> > > >> >> > >> >> mind that the
> > Saudi
> > > >> government had
> > > >> >> made no request
> > > >> >> > >> for us to
> > > >> >> > >> >> speed up the
> > rate at which
> > > >> our
> > > >> >> forces were to pull
> > > >> >> > >> out. To
> > > >> >> > >> >> the contrary,
> > they were
> > > >> rather
> > > >> >> pleased to have us
> > > >> >> > >> in country
> > > >> >> > >> >> in the short
> > term.
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> >> > >> >> Also, he was
> > miffed with
> > > >> our support
> > > >> >> for Israel,
> > > >> >> > >> totally
> > > >> >> > >> >> ignoring the
> > fact that
> > > >> along with
> > > >> >> the aid we send
> > > >> >> > >> to that
> > > >> >> > >> >> country, we
> > also spend
> > > >> billions in
> > > >> >> aid to Syria,
> > > >> >> > >> Jordan,
> > > >> >> > >> >> Egypt,
> > Lebanon,
> > > >> Afghanistan, and
> > > >> >> Saudi Arabia.
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> >> > >> >> As you can
> > see, I am rather
> > > >> at a
> > > >> >> loss. Please feel
> > > >> >> > >> free to
> > > >> >> > >> >> jump in and
> > enlighten me as
> > > >> to why
> > > >> >> we were so
> > > >> >> > >> richly
> > > >> >> > >> >> deserving of
> > radical muslim
> > > >> hatred
> > > >> >> and how the
> > > >> >> > >> losses we
> > > >> >> > >> >> sustained on
> > 9/11 could be
> > > >> justified
> > > >> >> as simple pay
> > > >> >> > >> back for
> > > >> >> > >> >> our misdeeds.
> > What is it
> > > >> that you
> > > >> >> imagine we might
> > > >> >> > >> do that
> > > >> >> > >> >> would sooth
> > these peoples
> > > >> imagined
> > > >> >> slights?
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> >> > >> >> g
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> >> > >> >> -----
> > Original Message
> > > >> ----- From:
> > > >> >> "Garrett
> > > >> >> > >> Clevenger"
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
> > > >> >> > >> >> To:
> > > >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >> >> > >> >> Sent:
> > Saturday, February
> > > >> 21, 2009
> > > >> >> 11:11 AM
> > > >> >> > >> >> Subject:
> > [Vision2020]
> > > >> Humane
> > > >> >> interrogations work
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> >> > >> >> > g,
> > > >> >> > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >> >
> > Let's assume for a
> > > >> moment
> > > >> >> that terrorists
> > > >> >> > >> are not
> > > >> >> > >> >> cockroaches,
> > but humans who
> > > >> like you
> > > >> >> and I have
> > > >> >> > >> the same
> > > >> >> > >> >> emotions of
> > bitterness,
> > > >> anger and
> > > >> >> desire to
> > > >> >> > >> retaliate.
> > > >> >> > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >> > Why do
> > you think these
> > > >> people
> > > >> >> would commit
> > > >> >> > >> such
> > > >> >> > >> >> dastardly
> > deeds, willing to
> > > >> kill
> > > >> >> other people?
> > > >> >> > >> What
> > > >> >> > >> >> specifics
> > would drive these
> > > >> people
> > > >> >> to act so?
> > > >> >> > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >> > I'm
> > asking to see
> > > >> if we
> > > >> >> could reason as
> > > >> >> > >> to why we
> > > >> >> > >> >> live in a
> > world seemingly
> > > >> filled
> > > >> >> with violence due
> > > >> >> > >> to humans
> > > >> >> > >> >> striking
> > fellow humans, so
> > > >> as to
> > > >> >> possibly
> > > >> >> > >> extricate
> > > >> >> > >> >> ourselves
> > from this deadly
> > > >> spiral...
> > > >> >> > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >> > gclev
> > > >> >> > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> >> > >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >>
> > =======================================================
> > > >> >> > >> >> > List
> > services made
> > > >> available by
> > > >> >> First Step
> > > >> >> > >> Internet,
> > > >> >> > >> >> > serving
> > the
> > > >> communities of the
> > > >> >> Palouse since
> > > >> >> > >> 1994.
> > > >> >> > >> >> >
> > > >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> >> > >> >> >
> > > >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> >> > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >>
> > > >> >> > >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >>
> > =======================================================
> > > >> >> > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >> >
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >>
> > =======================================================
> > > >> >> >  List services made available
> > by First Step
> > > >> Internet,
> > > >> >> >  serving the communities of the
> > Palouse since
> > > >> 1994.
> > > >> >> >               
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > > >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >          
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >>
> > =======================================================
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > =======================================================
> > > >> > List services made available by First
> > Step Internet,
> > > >> > serving the communities of the Palouse
> > since 1994.
> > > >> >               http://www.fsr.net
> > > >>
> > > >> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > =======================================================
> > > >> >
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> > =======================================================
> > >  List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> > >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
> > >                http://www.fsr.net                     
> >  
> > >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >
> > =======================================================