[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work

[g. crabtree]

The quote: 

" I imagine most of these acts are
 consequences of the American Empire willing to commit the
 same atrocities."

I suppose the question is, the same as who, The Girl Scouts? The Red Cross? It seems clear to me that since the topic was terrorism and that among the terrorists in question we find the taliban and al-qaeda at the top of the list, there was no need for wild speculation on my part. 

Moving on, "Anyone willing to kill for their agenda is sick and should be treated. Perhaps a lobotomy would be the cure, rather than killing them outright?"

I guess I have to assume that, considering your moral equivalence position that you include US and coalition troops in this group along with law enforcement officials and anyone else who might be willing to use ultimate measures to protect themselves or there loved ones?

There's going to be a dreadful dearth of stimulating conversation in your little corner of Hell.

g




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Garrett Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
To: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work


> Thanks, Sunil. I suppose we all read between the lines in our interpretations of the limitation of email conversation. Once we get hot-headed, that interpretation probably is distorted even more so.
> 
> Obviously, moral equivalences are not so much based on particular nationalities, but on the individuals who act immoral.  Some in the US probably are the moral equivalent of some members of the taliban or al qaeda.
> 
> Anyone willing to kill for their agenda is sick and should be treated. Perhaps a lobotomy would be the cure, rather than killing them outright?
> 
> gclev
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
>> To: jampot at roadrunner.com, garrettmc at verizon.net, "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:35 PM
>> I don't think Garrett made the claim you attribute to
>> him, and you're speculating wildly in claiming he
>> believes what you write below.
>> 
>> Do you really think that dropping bombs on cities has some
>> moral superiority over 'terrorism?'  Are those
>> victims any less dead?
>> 
>> Sunil
>> 
>> > From: jampot at roadrunner.com
>> > To: garrettmc at verizon.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:29:11 -0800
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
>> > 
>> > Take from my response anything you like. It's
>> definitely not that I have no 
>> > argument with your diatribe, it's just that I see
>> little point in trying to 
>> > have a discussion with anyone who actually believes
>> that the USA is the 
>> > moral equivalent of al-qaeda or the taliban. If
>> that's the world you live in 
>> > I feel sorry for you but I really don't believe
>> there is any common ground 
>> > from which to move this dialog forward. As for your
>> infernal living 
>> > arrangements, again my sympathies but I'm afraid I
>> can accept no 
>> > responsibility for where you choose to reside.
>> > 
>> > g
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Garrett Clevenger"
>> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "g.
>> crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 5:49 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
>> > 
>> > 
>> > > I'll take it from your snide response, g,
>> that you have no argument 
>> > > against my diatribe.
>> > >
>> > > You did prove Donovan's point, though, that
>> some poeple just can't be 
>> > > reasoned with, and my point, due to this, that
>> perhaps we are condemned to 
>> > > live in Hell.
>> > >
>> > > Congratulation's on helping keep the ball
>> rolling...
>> > >
>> > > gclev
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, g. crabtree
>> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> From: g. crabtree
>> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
>> interrogations work
>> > >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net,
>> vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > >> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 12:25 PM
>> > >> "I imagine most of these acts are
>> consequences of the
>> > >> American Empire willing to commit the same
>> atrocities."
>> > >>
>> > >> I'm thinking not so much a book as a tool
>> catalog.
>> > >>
>> > >> As the Ham-ster would say "nuff
>> said."
>> > >>
>> > >> g
>> > >>
>> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From:
>> "Garrett
>> > >> Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> > >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "g.
>> crabtree"
>> > >> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> > >> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:53 PM
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
>> interrogations work
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> > I don't condone the violent acts you
>> mention,
>> > >> either, whether committed by suicide bombers,
>> alleged
>> > >> hijackers, or the powers that be that distort
>> truth for
>> > >> their own agenda. I imagine most of these
>> acts are
>> > >> consequences of the American Empire willing
>> to commit the
>> > >> same atrocities.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > There may be some imagined slights, but
>> there are also
>> > >> some very real slights. History is replete
>> with examples of
>> > >> US policy directly responsible for killing
>> innocents. If
>> > >> you're willing to retaliate for feeling
>> slighted, why
>> > >> wouldn't your supposed enemies,
>> who've probably
>> > >> witnessed more bloodshed than hopefully
>> we'll ever see,
>> > >> want vengeance, too?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > You're probably aware of the US
>> financial and
>> > >> military support of Saddam Hussein during the
>> 80's. The
>> > >> US backed Iraq in their war against Iran,
>> where a million or
>> > >> so people were killed. The US also knew
>> Saddam was gassing
>> > >> the Kurds, where, guess what, innocent women,
>> children and
>> > >> men died of chemical weapons. But apparently,
>> the US
>> > >> condoned Saddam's actions.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > The Iranians suffered under the Shaw, a
>> dictator
>> > >> propped up by the US. The Saudis, too, suffer
>> under the
>> > >> Sauds, who the US is willing to support to
>> insure access to
>> > >> oil, and military bases.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > As for Osama, the CIA trained and paid
>> him and his
>> > >> muhjadeen during the Afghan war against the
>> Soviets. So the
>> > >> US is implicated in the deaths they caused
>> during that war,
>> > >> as well.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Those are only a few of the reasons some
>> people hate
>> > >> the US and are trying to bring it down, to
>> hold its citizens
>> > >> accountable, to make us pay with similar
>> heartache. It was
>> > >> only a matter of time before all that pent up
>> anger would
>> > >> make its way to the US, unfortunately.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > It seems unfair of you to be upset over
>> the deaths of
>> > >> Americans, but not of other people who died
>> as a result of
>> > >> US policy. Personally, I think all of these
>> deaths are a
>> > >> travesty.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Nothing exist inside a vacuum. Every
>> bomb has a boom.
>> > >> Every person who is tortured brings us closer
>> to our doom.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > All our values will not save us. All our
>> wealth is
>> > >> valueless when we become like our enemy and
>> sell our souls
>> > >> to oppress.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > We live in a freer society than where
>> the alleged
>> > >> terrorist dwell. We have access to more info,
>> and the
>> > >> ability to dissent. These other folk have
>> seen, and are
>> > >> taught, how US policy is hypocritical and
>> leads to their
>> > >> becoming second class citizens. If I lived
>> there and lost a
>> > >> loved one due to the US, I'd be pretty
>> pissed, too. I
>> > >> can empathize with their frustration at what
>> seems to be
>> > >> policy designed to enrich some in the US at
>> the expense of
>> > >> their well-being. I'm actually surprised
>> their isn't
>> > >> more retaliation, but maybe that's due to
>> there being
>> > >> more saner heads than we know, or maybe due
>> to increased
>> > >> security.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > These people's view of history,
>> whether accurate
>> > >> or not, becomes part of their psyche. I can
>> imagine how that
>> > >> shapes their behavior and view of the US.
>> Since they live in
>> > >> a more repressive regime, it's a lot
>> harder for them to
>> > >> break the cycle of hatred they have towards
>> us. Since they
>> > >> aren't as comfortable, it's probably
>> a lot harder
>> > >> for them to keep their cool. Those that are
>> more tolerant
>> > >> are probably ostracized. The ones who
>> retaliate against us
>> > >> are revered. Thus, natural selection leads to
>> violence
>> > >> against the US, and themselves.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I imagine there are people over there
>> like you who
>> > >> rally others to act violent. They probably
>> say the same
>> > >> thing you do, and so people are enlisted into
>> what means
>> > >> they have of retaliation. If China were
>> taking over our
>> > >> country with military might instead of
>> financially, perhaps
>> > >> we'd have more freedom fighters willing
>> to kill and die
>> > >> to protect our homeland, and we'd have a
>> better
>> > >> understanding of why some are willing to make
>> the ultimate
>> > >> sacrifice in what they deem to be defense of
>> their country.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > It's only natural to want to protect
>> what you
>> > >> love. It's natural to want to retaliate.
>> > >> > It makes perfect sense to me that
>> violence begets
>> > >> violence. We send our soldiers there, who
>> bomb and kill
>> > >> innocent people, which then leads to pissed
>> off people who
>> > >> want to bomb us back. But that doesn't it
>> make it right,
>> > >> or in our best interest. It just makes it
>> look like
>> > >> we're barbarians.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > The war of terror the US is engaged in
>> only seems to
>> > >> promote further violence, which means the war
>> of terror
>> > >> needs more money and troops to fight that
>> violence. It's
>> > >> absurd to think we can keep killing,
>> torturing and bombing
>> > >> our way out of this mess, especially
>> considering there is
>> > >> historical justification for people to be mad
>> at us for us
>> > >> letting our government commit violence.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > By letting them use our tax dollars,
>> like it or not,
>> > >> we are guilty of killing people, and thus,
>> there really are
>> > >> no innocent people, unless you are protesting
>> and not paying
>> > >> taxes. Since we are freer, we're actually
>> more guilty
>> > >> than those in more repressive regimes who
>> have no means of
>> > >> deposing of their government. We do not have
>> to be pawns in
>> > >> the US empire. We do not have to let them
>> engage our
>> > >> military in foreign excursions that quite
>> obviously are
>> > >> mostly intended to secure oil reserves.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > We've spent hundreds of billions of
>> dollars, lost
>> > >> more Americans than who died during the 911
>> strikes, and
>> > >> killed many, many tens of thousands of
>> innocent people in
>> > >> our desire for vengeance. For what? More
>> hatred towards us,
>> > >> more loss of lives, and more indebtedness to
>> fund this
>> > >> folly.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I'm able to condemn all these acts
>> of violence as
>> > >> the same evil they are: willing to kill for
>> > >> self-righteousness.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Admittedly, at this point, there is no
>> easy solution.
>> > >> Considering we have a hard time treating our
>> own with
>> > >> respect amongst our different viewpoints,
>> perhaps we're
>> > >> condemned to live in this hell. We all are
>> animals
>> > >> essentially controlled by our emotions. Our
>> higher being is
>> > >> smothered by those who want to lash out. We
>> all have these
>> > >> feelings, but we all can be redeemed if
>> we're courageous
>> > >> enough to stand up to the powers that be and
>> say,
>> > >> "Enough!"
>> > >> >
>> > >> > For starters though, we need to reign in
>> the American
>> > >> empire. We need to hold Israel accountable
>> for it's
>> > >> double standards against the Palestinians. We
>> need to stop
>> > >> supporting repressive regimes. We need to
>> have compassionate
>> > >> policy that treats all Earthlings with
>> respect. We need to
>> > >> take the higher ground and say,
>> "Sorry."
>> > >> Reconciliation may sound cheesy, but it goes
>> a long way in
>> > >> leading to forgiveness for our trespasses.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > The other alternative is to keep digging
>> ourselves in
>> > >> this hole of hatred, which will lead to
>> further acts that
>> > >> we'll feel we'll need to retaliate
>> against, ad
>> > >> nauseam.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Corrosive cynicism warmongers display
>> certainly
>> > >> isn't the answer.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Sorry for the book. This definitely
>> became longer than
>> > >> intended...
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Peace,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > gclev
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > --- On Sat, 2/21/09, g. crabtree
>> > >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> From: g. crabtree
>> <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
>> interrogations
>> > >> work
>> > >> >> To: garrettmc at verizon.net,
>> vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > >> >> Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009,
>> 3:21 PM
>> > >> >> "Let's assume for a moment
>> that
>> > >> terrorists are not
>> > >> >> cockroaches, but humans who like you
>> and I have
>> > >> the same
>> > >> >> emotions of bitterness, anger and
>> desire to
>> > >> retaliate."
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Retaliate for what? Sorry, but I
>> can't even
>> > >> begin to
>> > >> >> imagine flying jumbo jets into
>> buildings full of
>> > >> innocents
>> > >> >> or strapping on a bomb and going out
>> and
>> > >> deliberately
>> > >> >> killing women and children most of
>> whom are my own
>> > >> >> countrymen.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> "Why do you think these people
>> would commit
>> > >> such
>> > >> >> dastardly deeds, willing to kill
>> other people?
>> > >> What
>> > >> >> specifics would drive these people
>> to act
>> > >> so?"
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> According to Osama Bin-Laden, the
>> justification to
>> > >> murder
>> > >> >> nearly 3000 innocent men, women, and
>> children was
>> > >> that after
>> > >> >> the first gulf war we were not quick
>> enough in
>> > >> removing all
>> > >> >> of our troops from Saudi Arabia to
>> suit his
>> > >> tastes. Never
>> > >> >> mind that the Saudi government had
>> made no request
>> > >> for us to
>> > >> >> speed up the rate at which our
>> forces were to pull
>> > >> out. To
>> > >> >> the contrary, they were rather
>> pleased to have us
>> > >> in country
>> > >> >> in the short term.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Also, he was miffed with our support
>> for Israel,
>> > >> totally
>> > >> >> ignoring the fact that along with
>> the aid we send
>> > >> to that
>> > >> >> country, we also spend billions in
>> aid to Syria,
>> > >> Jordan,
>> > >> >> Egypt, Lebanon, Afghanistan, and
>> Saudi Arabia.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> As you can see, I am rather at a
>> loss. Please feel
>> > >> free to
>> > >> >> jump in and enlighten me as to why
>> we were so
>> > >> richly
>> > >> >> deserving of radical muslim hatred
>> and how the
>> > >> losses we
>> > >> >> sustained on 9/11 could be justified
>> as simple pay
>> > >> back for
>> > >> >> our misdeeds. What is it that you
>> imagine we might
>> > >> do that
>> > >> >> would sooth these peoples imagined
>> slights?
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> g
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From:
>> "Garrett
>> > >> Clevenger"
>> > >> >> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> > >> >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > >> >> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009
>> 11:11 AM
>> > >> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Humane
>> interrogations work
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > g,
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Let's assume for a moment
>> that terrorists
>> > >> are not
>> > >> >> cockroaches, but humans who like you
>> and I have
>> > >> the same
>> > >> >> emotions of bitterness, anger and
>> desire to
>> > >> retaliate.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > Why do you think these people
>> would commit
>> > >> such
>> > >> >> dastardly deeds, willing to kill
>> other people?
>> > >> What
>> > >> >> specifics would drive these people
>> to act so?
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > I'm asking to see if we
>> could reason as
>> > >> to why we
>> > >> >> live in a world seemingly filled
>> with violence due
>> > >> to humans
>> > >> >> striking fellow humans, so as to
>> possibly
>> > >> extricate
>> > >> >> ourselves from this deadly spiral...
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > gclev
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >>
>> > >>
>> =======================================================
>> > >> >> > List services made available by
>> First Step
>> > >> Internet,
>> > >> >> > serving the communities of the
>> Palouse since
>> > >> 1994.
>> > >> >> >              
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> >         
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >>
>> > >>
>> =======================================================
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> >
>> =======================================================
>> >  List services made available by First Step Internet, 
>> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
>> >                http://www.fsr.net                     
>>  
>> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >
>> =======================================================
> 
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
>               http://www.fsr.net                       
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
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