[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work

[g. crabtree]

"I imagine most of these acts are consequences of the American Empire 
willing to commit the same atrocities."

I'm thinking not so much a book as a tool catalog.

As the Ham-ster would say "nuff said."

g

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Garrett Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work


>I don't condone the violent acts you mention, either, whether committed by 
>suicide bombers, alleged hijackers, or the powers that be that distort 
>truth for their own agenda. I imagine most of these acts are consequences 
>of the American Empire willing to commit the same atrocities.
>
> There may be some imagined slights, but there are also some very real 
> slights. History is replete with examples of US policy directly 
> responsible for killing innocents. If you're willing to retaliate for 
> feeling slighted, why wouldn't your supposed enemies, who've probably 
> witnessed more bloodshed than hopefully we'll ever see, want vengeance, 
> too?
>
> You're probably aware of the US financial and military support of Saddam 
> Hussein during the 80's. The US backed Iraq in their war against Iran, 
> where a million or so people were killed. The US also knew Saddam was 
> gassing the Kurds, where, guess what, innocent women, children and men 
> died of chemical weapons. But apparently, the US condoned Saddam's 
> actions.
>
> The Iranians suffered under the Shaw, a dictator propped up by the US. The 
> Saudis, too, suffer under the Sauds, who the US is willing to support to 
> insure access to oil, and military bases.
>
> As for Osama, the CIA trained and paid him and his muhjadeen during the 
> Afghan war against the Soviets. So the US is implicated in the deaths they 
> caused during that war, as well.
>
> Those are only a few of the reasons some people hate the US and are trying 
> to bring it down, to hold its citizens accountable, to make us pay with 
> similar heartache. It was only a matter of time before all that pent up 
> anger would make its way to the US, unfortunately.
>
> It seems unfair of you to be upset over the deaths of Americans, but not 
> of other people who died as a result of US policy. Personally, I think all 
> of these deaths are a travesty.
>
> Nothing exist inside a vacuum. Every bomb has a boom. Every person who is 
> tortured brings us closer to our doom.
>
> All our values will not save us. All our wealth is valueless when we 
> become like our enemy and sell our souls to oppress.
>
> We live in a freer society than where the alleged terrorist dwell. We have 
> access to more info, and the ability to dissent. These other folk have 
> seen, and are taught, how US policy is hypocritical and leads to their 
> becoming second class citizens. If I lived there and lost a loved one due 
> to the US, I'd be pretty pissed, too. I can empathize with their 
> frustration at what seems to be policy designed to enrich some in the US 
> at the expense of their well-being. I'm actually surprised their isn't 
> more retaliation, but maybe that's due to there being more saner heads 
> than we know, or maybe due to increased security.
>
> These people's view of history, whether accurate or not, becomes part of 
> their psyche. I can imagine how that shapes their behavior and view of the 
> US. Since they live in a more repressive regime, it's a lot harder for 
> them to break the cycle of hatred they have towards us. Since they aren't 
> as comfortable, it's probably a lot harder for them to keep their cool. 
> Those that are more tolerant are probably ostracized. The ones who 
> retaliate against us are revered. Thus, natural selection leads to 
> violence against the US, and themselves.
>
> I imagine there are people over there like you who rally others to act 
> violent. They probably say the same thing you do, and so people are 
> enlisted into what means they have of retaliation. If China were taking 
> over our country with military might instead of financially, perhaps we'd 
> have more freedom fighters willing to kill and die to protect our 
> homeland, and we'd have a better understanding of why some are willing to 
> make the ultimate sacrifice in what they deem to be defense of their 
> country.
>
> It's only natural to want to protect what you love. It's natural to want 
> to retaliate.
> It makes perfect sense to me that violence begets violence. We send our 
> soldiers there, who bomb and kill innocent people, which then leads to 
> pissed off people who want to bomb us back. But that doesn't it make it 
> right, or in our best interest. It just makes it look like we're 
> barbarians.
>
> The war of terror the US is engaged in only seems to promote further 
> violence, which means the war of terror needs more money and troops to 
> fight that violence. It's absurd to think we can keep killing, torturing 
> and bombing our way out of this mess, especially considering there is 
> historical justification for people to be mad at us for us letting our 
> government commit violence.
>
> By letting them use our tax dollars, like it or not, we are guilty of 
> killing people, and thus, there really are no innocent people, unless you 
> are protesting and not paying taxes. Since we are freer, we're actually 
> more guilty than those in more repressive regimes who have no means of 
> deposing of their government. We do not have to be pawns in the US empire. 
> We do not have to let them engage our military in foreign excursions that 
> quite obviously are mostly intended to secure oil reserves.
>
> We've spent hundreds of billions of dollars, lost more Americans than who 
> died during the 911 strikes, and killed many, many tens of thousands of 
> innocent people in our desire for vengeance. For what? More hatred towards 
> us, more loss of lives, and more indebtedness to fund this folly.
>
> I'm able to condemn all these acts of violence as the same evil they are: 
> willing to kill for self-righteousness.
>
> Admittedly, at this point, there is no easy solution. Considering we have 
> a hard time treating our own with respect amongst our different 
> viewpoints, perhaps we're condemned to live in this hell. We all are 
> animals essentially controlled by our emotions. Our higher being is 
> smothered by those who want to lash out. We all have these feelings, but 
> we all can be redeemed if we're courageous enough to stand up to the 
> powers that be and say, "Enough!"
>
> For starters though, we need to reign in the American empire. We need to 
> hold Israel accountable for it's double standards against the 
> Palestinians. We need to stop supporting repressive regimes. We need to 
> have compassionate policy that treats all Earthlings with respect. We need 
> to take the higher ground and say, "Sorry." Reconciliation may sound 
> cheesy, but it goes a long way in leading to forgiveness for our 
> trespasses.
>
> The other alternative is to keep digging ourselves in this hole of hatred, 
> which will lead to further acts that we'll feel we'll need to retaliate 
> against, ad nauseam.
>
> Corrosive cynicism warmongers display certainly isn't the answer.
>
>
> Sorry for the book. This definitely became longer than intended...
>
> Peace,
>
> gclev
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 2/21/09, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
>> From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
>> To: garrettmc at verizon.net, vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 3:21 PM
>> "Let's assume for a moment that terrorists are not
>> cockroaches, but humans who like you and I have the same
>> emotions of bitterness, anger and desire to retaliate."
>>
>> Retaliate for what? Sorry, but I can't even begin to
>> imagine flying jumbo jets into buildings full of innocents
>> or strapping on a bomb and going out and deliberately
>> killing women and children most of whom are my own
>> countrymen.
>>
>> "Why do you think these people would commit such
>> dastardly deeds, willing to kill other people? What
>> specifics would drive these people to act so?"
>>
>> According to Osama Bin-Laden, the justification to murder
>> nearly 3000 innocent men, women, and children was that after
>> the first gulf war we were not quick enough in removing all
>> of our troops from Saudi Arabia to suit his tastes. Never
>> mind that the Saudi government had made no request for us to
>> speed up the rate at which our forces were to pull out. To
>> the contrary, they were rather pleased to have us in country
>> in the short term.
>>
>> Also, he was miffed with our support for Israel, totally
>> ignoring the fact that along with the aid we send to that
>> country, we also spend billions in aid to Syria, Jordan,
>> Egypt, Lebanon, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia.
>>
>> As you can see, I am rather at a loss. Please feel free to
>> jump in and enlighten me as to why we were so richly
>> deserving of radical muslim hatred and how the losses we
>> sustained on 9/11 could be justified as simple pay back for
>> our misdeeds. What is it that you imagine we might do that
>> would sooth these peoples imagined slights?
>>
>> g
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Garrett Clevenger"
>> <garrettmc at verizon.net>
>> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 11:11 AM
>> Subject: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
>>
>>
>> > g,
>> >
>> > Let's assume for a moment that terrorists are not
>> cockroaches, but humans who like you and I have the same
>> emotions of bitterness, anger and desire to retaliate.
>> >
>> > Why do you think these people would commit such
>> dastardly deeds, willing to kill other people? What
>> specifics would drive these people to act so?
>> >
>> > I'm asking to see if we could reason as to why we
>> live in a world seemingly filled with violence due to humans
>> striking fellow humans, so as to possibly extricate
>> ourselves from this deadly spiral...
>> >
>> > gclev
>> >
>> >
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>
>