[Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
Tom Hansen
thansen at moscow.com
Sun Sep 28 12:42:45 PDT 2008
Carl -
I believe that No Weatherman's middle name may be Richard (or its
abbreviated version).
Tom Hansen
>
> Do you think No Weatherman has a middle name? I think it's Hussein....
C> arl Westberg Jr.
>
> From: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 12:24:27 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Big long post.
>
> Still no name.
>
> Why?
>
> Sunil
>
> > Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 07:01:06 -0700
> > From: no.weatherman at gmail.com
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >
> > Dr. Campbell,
> >
> > In all my posts, I have refrained from name-calling and partisanship.
> > I have limited my content to one subject — legitimate questions
> > lingering around Barack Hussein Obama. I have not endorsed McCain and
> > I have not argued for any political agenda — conservative or liberal.
> > Rather, I have remained on point, despite some irresponsible rhetoric
> > from you, a man who knows better, because for all you know I may be
> > among the 18 million PUMAs whose general concerns I have specifically
> > advanced.
> >
> > If you take a moment to re-read our exchanges, you'll see that you
> > took liberties in interpreting my posts that neither my words nor my
> > intent allowed, and after apparently satisfying yourself with these
> > inferences you proceeded to advance abusive ad hominem arguments
> > against me, which most logicians, such as yourself, understand as
> > fallacious arguments. I defer to you judgment.
> >
> > Therefore, let me state it again, for the record, so that there is
> no
> > misunderstanding. When I wrote that I do not believe you are a
> > hypocrite, I really meant it. When I expressed appreciation for your
> > contribution to our community, I really meant it. And when I said I
> > didn't buy your line about not reading the whole email, I really meant
> > it. The shift in my position does not mean that I now think you're a
> > hypocrite; it means what it says, that is, if you take my words at
> > face value, which you have not done since my first post — the very
> > place where this ridiculous cycle began.
> >
> > Your over-the-top response to me indicated that I got under your skin
> > when that was never my intent. I have followed this list for years and
> > have never seen you go gonzo with such a hair trigger. You usually
> > approach things much more clinically, like a trained thinker. But in
> > this case you inferred conclusions that defy logic and you have not
> > changed positions since then. It's as though you have out-of-focus
> > tunnel vision and you can't remove the tunnel from your forehead.
> >
> > The same goes for some of the folks on this list. It's like a tribal
> > form of groupthink has overcome their otherwise rational selves. I
> > touched one nerve — Obama's shady background — and a handful of Obama
> > supporters lost their critical thinking skills, like Pavlov's dogs
> > salivating at the bell, and immediately turned hostile.
> >
> > I really do not mean ill will to anyone on this list or in this
> > community, including the folks at Christ Church, though you may not
> > believe me. I would like this conversation to remain on point as much
> > as possible and have yet to see an answer to the first concern I
> > expressed: Does Barrack Hussein Obama have an absolute moral
> > obligation to repudiate his personal and professional relationship
> > with domestic terrorist Bill Ayers?
> >
> > It's a fair question when you consider his position in the following
> > Boston Globe article where it states:
> >
> > "After Rezko's assistance in Obama's home purchase became a campaign
> > issue, at a time when the developer was awaiting trial in an unrelated
> > bribery case, Obama told the Chicago Sun-Times that the deterioration
> > of Rezmar's buildings never came to his attention. He said he would
> > have distanced himself from Rezko if he had known."
> >
> > If Obama felt compelled to distance himself from slumlord-felon Rezko,
> > how much more should he feel compelled to distance himself from Ayers?
> > And why doesn't his long-standing friendship with the terrorist bother
> > some of the more vocal Obama supporters?
> >
> > Here's the complete article:
> >
> >
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/27/grim_proving_ground>
_for_obamas_housing_policy/
> >
> > Grim proving ground for Obama's housing policy
> > The candidate endorsed subsidies for private entrepreneurs to build
> > low-income units. But, while he garnered support from developers,
man> y
> > projects in his former district have fallen into disrepair.
> > By Binyamin Appelbaum, Globe Staff | June 27, 2008
> >
> > CHICAGO — The squat brick buildings of Grove Parc Plaza, in a dense
> > neighborhood that Barack Obama represented for eight years as a state
> > senator, hold 504 apartments subsidized by the federal government for
> > people who can't afford to live anywhere else.
> >
> > But it's not safe to live here.
> >
> > About 99 of the units are vacant, many rendered uninhabitable by
> > unfixed problems, such as collapsed roofs and fire damage. Mice
> > scamper through the halls. Battered mailboxes hang open. Sewage backs
> > up into kitchen sinks. In 2006, federal inspectors graded the
> > condition of the complex an 11 on a 100-point scale — a score so bad
> > the buildings now face demolition.
> >
> > Grove Parc has become a symbol for some in Chicago of the broader
> > failures of giving public subsidies to private companies to build and
> > manage affordable housing — an approach strongly backed by Obama as
> > the best replacement for public housing.
> >
> > As a state senator, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee
> > coauthored an Illinois law creating a new pool of tax credits for
> > developers. As a US senator, he pressed for increased federal
> > subsidies. And as a presidential candidate, he has campaigned on a
> > promise to create an Affordable Housing Trust Fund that could give
> > developers an estimated $500 million a year.
> >
> > But a Globe review found that thousands of apartments across Chicago
> > that had been built with local, state, and federal subsidies —
> > including several hundred in Obama's former district — deteriorated so
> > completely that they were no longer habitable.
> >
> > Grove Parc and several other prominent failures were developed and
> > managed by Obama's close friends and political supporters. Those
> > people profited from the subsidies even as many of Obama's
> > constituents suffered. Tenants lost their homes; surrounding
> > neighborhoods were blighted.
> >
> > Some of the residents of Grove Parc say they are angry that Obama did
> > not notice their plight. The development straddles the boundary of
> > Obama's state Senate district. Many of the tenants have been his
> > constituents for more than a decade.
> >
> > "No one should have to live like this, and no one did anything about
> > it," said Cynthia Ashley, who has lived at Grove Parc since 1994.
> >
> > Obama's campaign, in a written response to Globe questions, affirmed
> > the candidate's support of public-private partnerships as an
> > alternative to public housing, saying that Obama has "consistently
> > fought to make livable, affordable housing in mixed-income
> > neighborhoods available to all."
> >
> > The campaign did not respond to questions about whether Obama was
> > aware of the problems with buildings in his district during his time
> > as a state senator, nor did it comment on the roles played by people
> > connected to the senator.
> >
> > Among those tied to Obama politically, personally, or professionally
> are:
> >
> > · Valerie Jarrett, a senior adviser to Obama's presidential
campaign
> > and a member of his finance committee. Jarrett is the chief executive
> > of Habitat Co., which managed Grove Parc Plaza from 2001 until this
> > winter and co-managed an even larger subsidized complex in Chicago
> > that was seized by the federal government in 2006, after city
> > inspectors found widespread problems.
> >
> > · Allison Davis, a major fund-raiser for Obama's US Senate campaign
> > and a former lead partner at Obama's former law firm. Davis, a
> > developer, was involved in the creation of Grove Parc and has used
> > government subsidies to rehabilitate more than 1,500 units in
Chicago> ,
> > including a North Side building cited by city inspectors last year
> > after chronic plumbing failures resulted in raw sewage spilling into
> > several apartments.
> >
> > · Antoin "Tony" Rezko, perhaps the most important fund-raiser for
> > Obama's early political campaigns and a friend who helped the Obamas
> > buy a home in 2005. Rezko's company used subsidies to rehabilitate
> > more than 1,000 apartments, mostly in and around Obama's district,
> > then refused to manage the units, leaving the buildings to decay to
> > the point where many no longer were habitable.
> >
> > Campaign finance records show that six prominent developers —
> > including Jarrett, Davis, and Rezko — collectively contributed more
> > than $175,000 to Obama's campaigns over the last decade and raised
> > hundreds of thousands more from other donors. Rezko alone raised at
> > least $200,000, by Obama's own accounting.
> >
> > One of those contributors, Cecil Butler, controlled Lawndale
> > Restoration, the largest subsidized complex in Chicago, which was
> > seized by the government in 2006 after city inspectors found more than
> > 1,800 code violations.
> >
> > Butler and Davis did not respond to messages. Rezko is in prison; his
> > lawyer did not respond to inquiries.
> >
> > Jarrett, a powerful figure in the Chicago development community,
> > agreed to be interviewed but declined to answer questions about Grove
> > Parc, citing what she called a continuing duty to Habitat's former
> > business partners. She did, however, defend Obama's position that
> > public-private partnerships are superior to public housing.
> >
> > "Government is just not as good at owning and managing as the private
> > sector because the incentives are not there," said Jarrett, whose
> > company manages more than 23,000 apartments. "I would argue that
> > someone living in a poor neighborhood that isn't 100 percent public
> > housing is by definition better off."
> >
> > In the middle of the 20th century, Chicago built some of the nation's
> > largest public housing developments, culminating in Robert Taylor
> > Homes: 4,415 apartments in 28 high-rise buildings stretching for 2
> > miles along an interstate highway.
> >
> > By the late 1980s, however, Robert Taylor Homes and the rest of the
> > Chicago developments had become American bywords for urban misery. The
> > roughly 30 developments operated for poor families by the Chicago
> > Housing Authority were plagued by crime and mired in poverty.
> >
> > In Stateway Gardens, a large complex just north of Robert Taylor, a
> > study of 1990 census data found the per-capita annual income was
> > $1,650. And the projects were falling apart after decades of epic,
> > sometimes criminal, mismanagement.
> >
> > Similar problems plagued public housing in other cities, leading the
> > federal government to greatly increase funding to address the
> > problems. Many cities, including Boston, mostly used that money to
> > rehabilitate their projects, maintaining public control.
> >
> > Chicago chose a more dramatic approach. Under Mayor Richard M. Daley,
> > who was elected in 1989, the city launched a massive plan to let
> > private companies tear down the projects and build mixed-income
> > communities on the same land.
> >
> > The city also hired private companies to manage the remaining public
> > housing. And it subsidized private companies to create and manage new
> > affordable housing, some of which was used to accommodate tenants
> > displaced from public housing.
> >
> > Chicago's plans drew critics from the start. They asked why the
> > government should pay developers to perform a basic public service —
> > one successfully performed by governments in other cities. And they
> > noted that privately managed projects had a history of deteriorating
> > because guaranteed government rent subsidies left companies with
> > little incentive to spend money on maintenance.
> >
> > Most of all, they alleged that Chicago was interested primarily in
> > redeveloping projects close to the Loop, the downtown area that was
> > seeing a surge of private development activity, shunting poor families
> > to neighborhoods farther from the city center. Only about one in three
> > residents was able to return to the redeveloped projects.
> >
> > "They are rapidly displacing poor people, and these companies are
> > profiting from this displacement," said Matt Ginsberg-Jaeckle of
> > Southside Together Organizing for Power, a community group that seeks
> > to help tenants stay in the same neighborhoods.
> >
> > "The same exact people who ran these places into the ground," the
> > private companies paid to build and manage the city's affordable
> > housing, "now are profiting by redeveloping them."
> >
> > Barack Obama was among the many Chicago residents who shared Daley's
> > conviction that private companies would make better landlords than the
> > Chicago Housing Authority.
> >
> > He had seen the failure of the public projects in the mid-1980s as a
> > community organizer at Altgeld Gardens, a large public housing complex
> > on the far South Side.
> >
> > He once told the Chicago Tribune that he had briefly considered
> > becoming a developer of affordable housing. But after graduating from
> > Harvard Law School in 1991, he turned down a job with Tony Rezko's
> > development company, Rezmar, choosing instead to work at the civil
> > rights law firm Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland, then led by
Allis> on
> > Davis.
> >
> > The firm represented a number of nonprofit companies that were
> > partnering with private developers to build affordable housing with
> > government subsidies.
> >
> > Obama sometimes worked on their cases. In at least one instance, he
> > represented the nonprofit company that owned Grove Parc, Woodlawn
> > Preservation and Investment Corp., when it was sued by the city for
> > failing to adequately heat one of its apartment complexes.
> >
> > Shortly after becoming a state senator in 1997, Obama told the Chicago
> > Daily Law Bulletin that his experience working with the development
> > industry had reinforced his belief in subsidizing private developers
> > of affordable housing.
> >
> > "That's an example of a smart policy," the paper quoted Obama as
> > saying. "The developers were thinking in market terms and operating
> > under the rules of the marketplace; but at the same time, we had
> > government supporting and subsidizing those efforts."
> >
> > Obama translated that belief into legislative action as a state
> > senator. In 2001, Obama and a Republican colleague, William
Peterson> ,
> > sponsored a successful bill that increased state subsidies for private
> > developers. The law let developers designated by the state raise up to
> > $26 million a year by selling tax credits to Illinois residents. For
> > each $1 in credits purchased, the buyer was allowed to decrease his
> > taxable income by 50 cents.
> >
> > Obama also cosponsored the original version of a bill creating an
> > annual fund to subsidize rents for extremely low-income tenants,
> > although it did not pass until 2005, after he had left the state
> > Senate.
> >
> > "He was very passionate about the issues," said Julie Dworkin of the
> > Chicago Coalition for the Homeless, who worked with Obama on
> > affordable housing issues. "He was someone we could go to and count on
> > him to be there."
> >
> > The developers gave Obama their financial support. Jarrett, Davis,
an> d
> > Rezko all served on Obama's campaign finance committee when he won a
> > seat in the US Senate in 2004.
> >
> > Obama has continued to support increased subsidies as a presidential
> > candidate, calling for the creation of an Affordable Housing Trust
> > Fund, which could distribute an estimated $500 million a year to
> > developers. The money would be siphoned from the profits of two
> > mortgage companies created and supervised by the federal government,
> > Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
> >
> > "I will restore the federal government's commitment to low-income
> > housing," Obama wrote last September in a letter to the Granite State
> > Organizing Project, an umbrella group for several dozen New Hampshire
> > religious, community, and political organizations. He added, "Our
> > nation's low-income families are facing an affordable housing crisis,
> > and it is our responsibility to ensure this crisis does not get worse
> > by ineffective replacement of existing public-housing units."
> >
> > One of the earliest public-private partnerships of the type supported
> > by Daley and Obama took place in the Woodlawn neighborhood, a
> > checkerboard of battered apartment buildings and vacant lots just
> > south of the University of Chicago.
> >
> > Grove Parc Plaza opened there in 1990 as a redevelopment of an older
> > housing complex. The buildings had a new owner and a major renovation
> > funded by the federal government. Even the name Grove Parc Plaza was
> > new.
> >
> > The owner, a local nonprofit company called Woodlawn Preservation and
> > Investment Corp., was led by two of the neighborhood's most powerful
> > ministers, Arthur Brazier and Leon Finney. Obama had relationships
> > with both men. In 1999, he donated $500 of his campaign funds to
> > another of their community groups, The Woodlawn Organization.
> >
> > Woodlawn Preservation hired a private management firm, William
> > Moorehead and Associates, to oversee the complex. In 2001, the
compan> y
> > lost that contract and a contract to manage several public housing
> > projects for allegedly failing to do its job. The company's head,
> > William Moorehead, was subsequently convicted of embezzling almost $1
> > million in management fees.
> >
> > Woodlawn Preservation hired a new property manager, Habitat Co. At the
> > time, the company was headed by its founder, Daniel Levin, also a
> > major contributor to Obama's campaigns. Valerie Jarrett was executive
> > vice president.
> >
> > Residents say the complex deteriorated under Moorehead's management
> > and continued to decline after Habitat took over. A maintenance worker
> > at the complex says money often wasn't even available for steel wool
> > to plug rat holes. But as late as 2003, a routine federal inspection
> > still gave conditions at Grove Parc a score of 82 on a 100-point
> > scale.
> >
> > When inspectors returned in 2005, they found conditions were
> > significantly worse. Inspectors gave the complex a score of 56 and
> > warned that improvements were necessary. They returned the following
> > year and found things had reached a new low. Grove Parc got a score of
> > 11 and a final warning. Three months later, inspectors found there had
> > been insufficient improvements and moved to seize the complex from
> > Woodlawn Preservation.
> >
> > After negotiations with tenants, the government agreed to allow a new
> > company, Preservation of Affordable Housing, a Boston-based firm,
t> o
> > replace Habitat as the manager of Grove Parc. The company is
> > negotiating to buy the development, which would then be demolished and
> > replaced with new housing.
> >
> > Officials at Woodlawn Preservation say the government didn't give them
> > enough money to properly maintain Grove Parc. Habitat's Jarrett
> > declined to comment on Grove Parc in particular but said it is hard to
> > manage something you don't own.
> >
> > But other Chicago developers and housing activists say federal
> > subsidies can be adequate if managed properly. They say Grove Parc
> > stands apart for how badly it fell into disrepair.
> >
> > Preservation of Affordable Housing has assumed responsibility for
> > numerous subsidized complexes across the country.
> >
> > "Grove Parc is quite an exception to what we've normally done because
> > it's in such bad shape," said the nonprofit's chief executive, Amy
> > Anthony. "These complexes are often tired, they're always denser than
> > today's philosophy, but they're not usually anywhere near as
> > deteriorated."
> >
> > Similar problems also plagued the next generation of affordable
> > housing development in Obama's district, created as part of the Daley
> > administration's efforts to subsidize smaller apartment buildings
> > scattered throughout neighborhoods.
> >
> > One of the largest recipients of the subsidies was Rezmar Corp.,
> > founded in 1989 by Tony Rezko, who ran a company that sold snacks at
> > city beaches, and Daniel Mahru, who ran a company that sold ice to
> > Rezko. Neither man had development experience.
> >
> > Over the next nine years, Rezmar used more than $87 million in
> > government grants, loans, and tax credits to renovate about 1,000
> > apartments in 30 Chicago buildings. Companies run by the partners also
> > managed many of the buildings, collecting government rent subsidies.
> >
> > Rezmar collected millions in development fees but fell behind on
> > mortgage payments almost immediately. On its first project, the city
> > government agreed to reduce the company's monthly payments from almost
> > $3,000 to less than $500.
> >
> > By the time Obama entered the state Senate in 1997, the buildings were
> > beginning to deteriorate. In January 1997, the city sued Rezmar for
> > failing to provide adequate heat in a South Side building in the
> > middle of an unusually cold winter. It was one of more than two dozen
> > housing-complaint suits filed by the city against Rezmar for
> > violations at its properties.
> >
> > People who lived in some of the Rezmar buildings say trash was not
> > picked up and maintenance problems were ignored. Roofs leaked, windows
> > whistled, insects moved in.
> >
> > "In the winter I can feel the cold air coming through the walls and
> > the sockets," said Anthony Frizzell, 57, who has lived for almost
t> wo
> > decades in a Rezmar building on South Greenwood Avenue. "They didn't
> > insulate it or nothing."
> >
> > Sharee Jones, who lives in another former Rezko building one block
> > away, said her apartment was rat-infested for years.
> >
> > "You could hear them under the floor and in the walls, and they didn't
> > do nothing about it," Jones said.
> >
> > By the time Rezmar asked Chicago's city government for a loan on its
> > final subsidized development, in 1998, the city's housing
commissione> r
> > was describing the company in a memo as being in "bad shape." The
> > Daley administration still made the $3.1 million loan.
> >
> > Shortly thereafter, Rezmar switched from subsidized housing to
> > high-end development, fueled by the money it had made in subsidized
> > work. Rezko's companies also stopped managing the subsidized
> > complexes.
> >
> > "Affordable housing run by private companies just doesn't work,"
> > Mahru, who no longer works with Rezko, said in an interview with the
> > Globe. "It's difficult, if not impossible, for a private company to
> > maintain affordable housing for low-income tenants."
> >
> > Responsibility for several buildings fell to the Chicago Equity Fund,
> > which had purchased government tax credits from Rezmar to help finance
> > the projects. After Rezko walked away, the fund was obliged to
> > maintain the buildings as affordable housing. If it did not, it would
> > have to repay the government for the tax credits.
> >
> > The fund found the buildings in terrible condition. In a 2001 plea to
> > the state to temporarily suspend payments on its mortgages, a fund
> > executive wrote that heating problems, lapsed maintenance, and
> > uncollected rent made the buildings almost impossible to manage.
> >
> > Most of the buildings have since been foreclosed upon, forcing the
> > tenants to find new housing.
> >
> > All the while, Tony Rezko was forging a close friendship with Barack
> > Obama. When Obama opened his campaign for state Senate in 1995,
> > Rezko's companies gave Obama $2,000 on the first day of fund-raising.
> > Save for a $500 contribution from another lawyer, Obama didn't raise
> > another penny for six weeks. Rezko had essentially seeded the start of
> > Obama's political career.
> >
> > As Obama ascended, Rezko became one of his largest fund-raisers. And
> > in 2005, Rezko and his wife helped the Obamas purchase the house where
> > they now live.
> >
> > Eleven of Rezmar's buildings were located in the district represented
> > by Obama, containing 258 apartments. The building without heat in
> > January 1997, the month Obama entered the state Senate, was in his
> > district. So was Jones's building with rats in the walls and
> > Frizzell's building that lacked insulation. And a redistricting after
> > the 2000 Census added another 350 Rezmar apartments to the area
> > represented by Obama.
> >
> > But Obama has contended that he knew nothing about any problems in
> > Rezmar's buildings.
> >
> > After Rezko's assistance in Obama's home purchase became a campaign
> > issue, at a time when the developer was awaiting trial in an unrelated
> > bribery case, Obama told the Chicago Sun-Times that the deterioration
> > of Rezmar's buildings never came to his attention. He said he would
> > have distanced himself from Rezko if he had known.
> >
> > Other local politicians say they knew of the problems.
> >
> > "I started getting complaints from police officers about particular
> > properties that turned out to be Rezko properties," said Toni
> > Preckwinkle, a Chicago alderman.
> >
> > She had previously received campaign contributions from Rezmar and
> > said she had regarded the company as a model, one of the city's best
> > affordable housing developers.
> >
> > But in the early 2000s, she called Rezko to ask for an explanation for
> > the declining conditions. He told her Rezmar was "getting out of the
> > business," she said — walking away from its responsibility for
> > managing the developments.
> >
> > "I didn't see him nor have anything to do with him after that," she
sai> d.
> >
> > Preckwinkle, who will be an Obama delegate at the Democratic National
> > Convention, said she would not answer any questions about Obama's role
> > in her district, nor his relationship with Rezko.
> >
> > Allison Davis, Obama's former law firm boss, dabbled in development
> > for years while he worked primarily as a lawyer. He participated in
> > the development of Grove Parc Plaza. And in 1996, Davis left his law
> > firm to pursue a full-time career as an affordable housing developer,
> > fueled by the subsidies from the Daley administration and aided, on
> > occasion, by Obama himself.
> >
> > Over roughly the past decade, Davis's companies have received more
> > than $100 million in subsidies to renovate and build more than 1,500
> > apartments in Chicago, according to a Chicago Sun-Times tally. In
> > several cases, Davis partnered with Tony Rezko. In 1998 the two men
> > created a limited partnership to build an apartment building for
> > seniors on Chicago's South Side. Obama wrote letters on state Senate
> > stationery supporting city and state loans for the project.
> >
> > In 2000 Davis asked the nonprofit Woods Fund of Chicago for a $1
> > million investment in a new development partnership, Neighborhood
> > Rejuvenation Partners. Obama, a member of the board, voted in
favor> ,
> > helping Davis secure the investment.
> >
> > The following year, Davis assembled another partnership to create New
> > Evergreen/Sedgwick, a $10.7 million renovation of five walk-up
> > buildings in a gentrifying neighborhood. The project, a model of
> > small-scale, mixed-income development, was subsidized by almost $6
> > million in state loans and federal tax credits.
> >
> > Conditions deteriorated quickly. Chronic plumbing failures consumed
> > the project's financial reserves while leaving undrained sewage in
> > some of the apartments. In October, after repeated complaints from
> > building residents, the city government sued the owners, and a judge
> > imposed a $5,500 fine.
> >
> > New Evergreen/Sedgwick is managed by a company run by Cullen Davis,
> > Allison Davis's son and also a contributor to Obama's campaigns.
> > Cullen Davis said the problems were rooted in the way New
> > Evergreen/Sedgwick was financed. Like most new projects, it is owned
> > by a company created to own one building. That company determined how
> > much to spend on renovations, how much to set aside for maintenance —
> > and how much to keep as profit. When the maintenance funds ran out,
> > there was no other source of money.
> >
> > "All these deals are set up as islands," Cullen Davis acknowledged. In
> > this case, "The margin of error at Sedgwick was a little too close to
> > begin with."
> >
> > Chicago's struggles with the deterioration of its subsidized private
> > developments seemed to reach a new height in 2006, when the federal
> > government foreclosed on Lawndale Restoration, the city's largest
> > subsidized-housing complex. City inspectors found more than 1,800 code
> > violations, including roof leaks, exposed wiring, and pools of
sewa> ge.
> >
> > Lawndale Restoration was a collection of more than 1,200 apartments in
> > 97 buildings spread across 300 blocks of west Chicago. It was owned by
> > a company controlled by Cecil Butler, a former civil rights activist
> > who came to be reviled as a slumlord by a younger generation of
> > activists.
> >
> > Lawndale Restoration was created in the early 1980s, when the federal
> > government helped Butler take control of a group of old buildings,
> > including lending $22 million to his company to redevelop the
> > buildings and agreeing to subsidize tenant rents. In 1995, Butler's
> > company got a $51 million loan from the state to fund additional
> > renovations at Lawndale Restoration. In 2000 Butler's company brought
> > in Habitat Co. to help manage the complex.
> >
> > Nonetheless, the buildings deteriorated badly. The problems came to
> > public attention in a dramatic way in 2004, after a sport utility
> > vehicle driven by a suburban woman trying to buy drugs struck one of
> > the buildings, causing it to collapse. City inspectors arrived in the
> > ensuing glare, finding a long list of code violations, leading city
> > officials to urge the federal government to seize the complex.
> >
> > In the midst of the uproar, a small group of Lawndale residents
> > gathered to rally against the Democratic candidate for the US Senate,
> > Barack Obama.
> >
> > Obama's Republican opponent, Alan Keyes, trailed badly in the polls
> > and was not seen as a serious challenger. But the organizers had a
> > simple message: Cecil Butler had donated $3,000 to Obama's campaign.
> > Habitat had close ties to Obama. And Obama had remained silent about
> > Lawndale's plight.
> >
> > Paul Johnson, who helped to organize the protest, said Obama must
hav> e
> > known about the problems.
> >
> > "How didn't he know?" said Johnson. "Of course he knew. He just didn't
ca> re."
> >
> > Butler did not return messages but in the past has said the government
> > did not give him enough money to maintain the project. Habitat
> > emphasized in a statement that its role at Lawndale was restricted to
> > tasks that included financial oversight and management.
> >
> > In 2006, following the foreclosure, the federal government sold the
> > buildings to the city for $10. The city has since parceled out the
> > buildings among two dozen developers, who are rebuilding Lawndale for
> > the fourth time with yet another round of government loans and
> > subsidies.
> >
> > Even as Lawndale Restoration and Rezmar's buildings were foreclosed
> > upon, and Grove Parc and other subsidized developments fell deeper
> > into disrepair, Obama has remained a steadfast supporter of
> > subsidizing private development.
> >
> > And although he has distanced himself from Rezko, Obama has remained
> > close to others in the development community. Jarrett participates in
> > the campaign's senior staff meetings. And Obama chose another close
> > friend, Martin Nesbitt, as his campaign treasurer. Nesbitt is
chairma> n
> > of the Chicago Housing Authority, one of the key overseers of the
> > shift toward private management and development.
> >
> > "Throughout his career in public service, Barack Obama has advocated
> > for the development of mixed-income housing and public-private
> > partnerships to create affordable housing as an alternative to
> > publicly subsidized, concentrated, low-income housing," the Obama
> > campaign said in a statement provided to the Globe.
> >
> > As a result, some people in Chicago's poorest neighborhoods are torn
> > between a natural inclination to support Obama and a concern about his
> > relationships with the developers they hold responsible for Chicago's
> > affordable housing failures. Some housing advocates worry that Obama
> > has not learned from those failures.
> >
> > "I'm not against Barack Obama," said Willie J.R. Fleming, an
organize> r
> > with the Coalition to Protect Public Housing and a former public
> > housing resident. "What I am against is some of the people around
> > him."
> >
> > Jamie Kalven, a longtime Chicago housing activist, put it this way:
"> I
> > hope there is not much predictive value in his history and in his
> > involvement with that community."
> >
> >
> > On 9/27/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > > Dr. No,
> > >
> > > This is my last post. A few things.
> > >
> > > First, just because you say something doesn't mean it's true. You
sa> id in the previous post that
> > > you were not accusing me of being a hypocrite but it is pretty clear
f> rom what you have below
> > > that you did make this accusation. It is hard for me to tell whether
y> ou are merely lacking in
> > > critical thinking skills, deliberately lying and misleading, or
me> rely psychotic. Although I don't
> > > know who you are, Chris, if you are who I think you are, my
gues> s is a combination of the three.
> > >
> > > Second, sometimes I wish that the kind of guilt by association that
> you fling in all your posts was
> > > not fallacious. Because then the Republican party would be sunk.
After> all, McCain wasted a VP
> > > spot just to get the religious right vote and with that comes having
r> adical nuts like you in their
> > > corner. There is a lot of association going on there and a lot of
guil> t if you're reasoning is correct.
> > > But that is not a reason not to vote for McCain. Poor judgment, on
t> he other hand, is.
> > >
> > > And don't get me started on Obama's presumed connection to
a "racist"
> church. The only reason
> > > that you can make that claim is that you don't put your name on the
bo> ttom, which is the real
> > > answer to Paul's question. For even if I don't know who you are for
ce> rtain, I'm pretty damn sure
> > > about the church to which you are affiliated. If not, prove me
wrong> and use your real name.
> > > There is no other reason why you don't. Of course, you will likely
m> ake one up!
> > >
> > > Which is why our conversation has ended.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Joe Campbell
> > >
> > > ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Dr. Campbell,
> > > >
> > > > I don't buy your statement that you didn't read the whole post.
You
> > > > obviously read looking for a "gotcha" and you found one — I didn't
> > > > quote the exact words of Dylan correctly. Thank you for pointing
tha> t
> > > > out. Perhaps we can call it the fallacy of majoring on the
minors,> or
> > > > harping on the irrelevant, because my misstatement did not affect
> the
> > > > content of the post. But that's all right, if it makes you feel
> > > > better, because you didn't misquote me — you merely fabricated
> > > > statements and imputed them to me. The logical error you're
committi> ng
> > > > is seeing words that don't exist. I rely upon your expertise to
find
> > > > the name for this fallacy.
> > > >
> > > > For example, I never used the word McCain and I never said Obama
i> s
> > > > "bad" or that you shouldn't "vote" for him, etc., just as I
neve> r
> > > > suggested, implied, or concluded that "it is OK to circumvent
th> e
> > > > democratic process and cheat in getting a president elected as
long
> as
> > > > your side wins." I never tried to justify Liddy's actions; in
fact> , I
> > > > wrote just the opposite. But these are all words and ideas that
you
> > > > imputed to me. And just in case you're tempted to hurl a few more
> > > > personal insults at me, saying you could not understand the
meanin> g of
> > > > my post, please note that Keely followed my point as did Tom and
t> he
> > > > few folks who contacted me offlist. Therefore, I will try it one
m> ore
> > > > time.
> > > >
> > > > In my first post I applied your standard of disassociation to
Barack
> > > > Hussein Obama and his longtime friend Bill Ayers. I segued to get
th> e
> > > > subject back on point, which seems to be where you lost me. I
trie> d to
> > > > confront you with facts that no liberal wants to address. These
are
> > > > facts that no one in the msm has covered, probably for the same
re> ason
> > > > no liberal wants to address them.
> > > >
> > > > 1. My first point was that Obama has a long-standing personal and
> > > > professional relationship with Bill Ayers.
> > > >
> > > > 2. My second point was that msm refuses to cover this fact and
other
> > > > disturbing facts about Obama.
> > > >
> > > > For example, it's a simple historical fact that Bill Ayers is a
> > > > notorious domestic terrorist who intended to overthrow the US
> > > > government by violent force and it's a simple fact that Bill Ayers
> > > > launched Barrack Hussein Obama's political career from his living
> > > > room. It's a fact that Obama has written two memoirs and neither
one
> > > > of them mentions his first and primary executive experience at
CAC> ,
> > > > which raises honest questions about his role at CAC but apparently
> > > > doesn't register with you or any other liberal on this list. It's
a
> > > > fact that a prominent member of the Democratic Party is
challenging
> > > > Obama's legal standing to run for POTUS because of his
citizenships
> in
> > > > other countries, but some people are satisfied with a jpg image
fi> le
> > > > on the worldwide web. Maybe they're still stuck on the bridge to
> > > > nowhere.
> > > >
> > > > Let me give you a different kind of example. Let's say that you
and
> I
> > > > both agree with candidate X across the board on every position
excep> t
> > > > for one minor point — he's a member in good standing of the KKK
an> d he
> > > > proudly dons his robe in public. You can cry "guilt by
association"
> > > > all you want, but I'm not going to vote for that man because this
> is
> > > > where you're wrong. As Kurtz said, it's not guilt by
association> ; it's
> > > > guilt by participation. HE VOLUNTARILY PARTICIPATES IN A RACIST
> > > > ORGANIZATION.
> > > >
> > > > This is the sad reality of Barrack Hussein Obama that no one on
the
> > > > left wants to acknowledge — especially the msm and not a few
folks> on
> > > > this list. Obama was a member in good standing of a virulent
> > > > anti-Semitic, anti-American church for 20 years, yet everyone
gi> ves
> > > > him a pass when he claims he never heard any of the toxic vitriol
> > > > spewing from Rev. Wright.
> > > >
> > > > Obama served side by side on CAC's board of directors with its
> > > > founder, Bill Ayers, who just happens to be a domestic
terrorist> , yet
> > > > everyone gives him a pass when he claims, "he's just a guy who
liv> es
> > > > in my neighborhood."
> > > >
> > > > Obama blew millions of dollars on school reform when he served on
> > > > CAC's board of directors, yet everyone gives him a pass, which
i> s
> > > > especially disturbing given the number of people on this list who
ar> e
> > > > education oriented. If Obama's opponent had thrown millions down a
r> at
> > > > hole in a failed school-reform program, this list would go
sideway> s
> > > > with criticism. But no one says anything, as though it never
happe> ned.
> > > >
> > > > The list of Obama's failures is staggering and the list of
questions
> > > > surrounding his background is equally staggering, yet few people
o> n
> > > > this list appear to care and none of the msm care.
> > > >
> > > > Tell me Dr. Campbell, how do you account for this apparent black
h> ole
> > > > in the political universe?
> > > >
> > > > I ask this question remembering the words of Dylan:
> > > >
> > > > "We live in a political world
> > > > The one we can see and feel
> > > > But there's no one to check
> > > > It's all a stacked deck
> > > > We all know for sure that it's real." ("Political World")
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 9/27/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > > > > Dr. No,
> > > > >
> > > > > A while back I had an exchange with another nameless, radical
c> onservative who claimed to be
> > > > > a former student of mine. It occurs to me that you, too,
migh> t be a former student and if you
> > > > > are I urge you to contact me offlist so we can see if we can
try
> to get your money back. Apparently
> > > > > you have not learned a damn thing.
> > > > >
> > > > > As far as I could tell from your rambling, psychotic previous
p> ost, your point was that (a) you
> > > > > thought that I was suggesting that McCain distance himself from
L> iddy, or that somehow McCain
> > > > > was bad, or that you shouldn't vote for McCain because of the
L> iddy connection, and that your
> > > > > response to my post was that Obama distance himself from
Ayers,> or that Obama is bad, or (more
> > > > > likely) that you shouldn't vote for Obama because of his
"connect> ion" to Ayers and other "radical"
> > > > > stuff. That, my friend, is the fallacy of tu quoque.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I was careful to say I wasn't sure. After all, it was a
ram> bling, psychotic post and I have no
> > > > > real clue what the point was. It might be that you were merely
co> mmitting the fallacy of guilt by
> > > > > association. Maybe it was a mere bad argument or some kind of
new> wave bad argument that
> > > > > folks on the cutting edge of the kind of rhetoric you favor
inven> t, a fallacy that is so new that it
> > > > > doesn't yet have a name. I'm not sure because I didn't really
rea> d the whole post. If you want me
> > > > > to read your whole post, I'm sorry but you're going to have to
> use your real name.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to make my own views on this issue clear, I've cut and
pas> ted my summary below.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Ayers is bad and Liddy is bad. (I'm not suggesting that
Ayers
> is good.)
> > > > > 2. Liddy is worse than Ayers (one blew up buildings; the other
> was part of a team that succeeded
> > > > > in winning a presidential election, in part, by cheating).
> > > > > 3. Neither is an issue in the recent election, for guilt by
ass> ociation is a fallacy.
> > > > > 4. If Ayers is an issue (and Republicans have made it an
issue)> , then Liddy is a bigger issue.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > One last thing. You tried to justify Liddy's action by saying
that> he was at war. But if he was at
> > > > > war, then who was he fighting? Folks like the Weatherman. And
i> f he was fighting a war with
> > > > > them, it shouldn't be too surprising that they blew things up.
> Isn't that what you do in a war, blow
> > > > > things up. The problem with this justification of Liddy's
action
> is that it is the same justification
> > > > > that the Weatherman would give. Your bad reasoning is
justifying
> their bad actions. So stop.
> > > > >
> > > > > And, just for the record, the line from the Dylan song is
"Yo> u don't need a weatherman to know
> > > > > which way the wind blows," not the one you quoted below.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Joe Campbell
> > > > >
> > > > > ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dr. Campbell,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Au contraire! my point is not "it is OK to circumvent the
democ> ratic
> > > > > > process and cheat in getting a president elected as long as
you> r side
> > > > > > wins," and I am rather disappointed with you for your
failure> to
> > > > > > realize my point, which I repeated, replicated, and
reass> erted ad
> > > > > > nauseam. But since you missed it, I shall say it again.
Barac> k Hussein
> > > > > > Obama has an absolute moral obligation to divorce himself
compl> etely
> > > > > > from Bill Ayers and his ilk, if for no other reason than to
r> eassure
> > > > > > the American people that he and the self-admitted domestic
terr> orist
> > > > > > do not share the same ideological agenda.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That was the point of my post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not calling you a hypocrite and the thought never
crossed
> my
> > > > > > mind. I am not suspicious of your reasoning either. I know
you
> are a
> > > > > > trained logician. I have the utmost respect for you and
appreci> ate
> > > > > > your contribution to our community. I applied the standard
you
> > > > > > espoused to Barack Obama's longstanding relationship with
domes> tic
> > > > > > terrorist Bill Ayers. Therefore, please allow me to enlarge
u> pon my
> > > > > > point.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not only has Barack Hussein Obama not distanced himself from
do> mestic
> > > > > > terrorist Bill Ayers, he worked closely with him seeking to
r> eform the
> > > > > > Chicago school system. Consequently he cannot distance
himself
> from
> > > > > > Ayers without rewriting history, or else ignoring it as he
di> d in his
> > > > > > two memoirs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And the msm has been complicit in helping Obama ignore his
past> by
> > > > > > refusing to vet him. We have seen the msm agonize over every
mi> nute
> > > > > > detail of Sarah Palin's life, to the point that I fully
expec> t an
> > > > > > interview with her kindergarten teacher so that America may
lea> rn that
> > > > > > she spilled paste in the classroom. But we don't know boo
about> Barack
> > > > > > Hussein Obama's so-called "missing years":
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/obamas_missing_years.htm> l
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He jumped from the Daley Machine to the Daily Kos overnight
wit> hout
> > > > > > the fourth branch of our government asking any of the hard
ques> tions
> > > > > > regarding his relationship with Ayers or how he skyrocketed
thr> ough
> > > > > > the Chicago system. And the very few people that have asked
the> hard
> > > > > > questions were met with Chicago-style intimidation tactics:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
http://media.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZmRhYmE3NzFlMTljNTdmZ>
GQ3MjhkYTVjNzdmMjVhMzE=
> > > > > >
> > > > > > File that one under "Free Speech."
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Obama's background is so vague that one US citizen has sought
a
> > > > > > declaratory judgement against him because he has not
establishe> d his
> > > > > > qualification as a US citizen to run for president:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > http://obamacrimes.com/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This guy's probably just another right-wing nut job,
Democrat> ic Party
> > > > > > bona fides notwithstanding. He's a former Deputy Attorney
Gener> al of
> > > > > > Pennsylvania and former Chair of the Democratic Party in
Montgo> mery
> > > > > > County, Pennsylvania.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm sure there's nothing to it, just as I'm sure Obama never
> heard any
> > > > > > of Rev. Wright's disgusting rants.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 9/24/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com>
wrote> :
> > > > > > > So your point, Mr. No, if I understand it correctly,
is> : it is OK to circumvent the democratic
> > > > > > > process and cheat in getting a president elected as long
as
> your side wins. Is that it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I might be wrong but my guess is that the fallacy in this
po> st -- apart from the obvious appeal to fear -- is the tu quoque
fallacy.
He> re is a description from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The fallacy of tu quoque is committed if we conclude that
so> meone's argument not to perform
> > > > > > > some act must be faulty because the arguer himself or
hersel> f has performed it. Similarly, when
> > > > > > > we point out that the arguer doesn't practice what he
preach> es, we may be therefore suppose that
> > > > > > > there must be an error in the preaching, but we are
reason> ing fallaciously and creating a tu
> > > > > > > quoque. This is a kind of ad hominem fallacy.
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > Discovering that a speaker is a hypocrite is a reason to
be
> suspicious of the speaker's reasoning, but it is not a sufficient reason
> to discount it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me know if anyone thinks otherwise.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Joe Campbell
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ---- No Weatherman <no.weatherman at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > I hate to be a nattering nabob of negativity, but to be
> fair, if you
> > > > > > > > read Liddy's biography, as I have, and if you listen
t> o him on the
> > > > > > > > radio, as I do, then you'd know that Liddy justifies
h> is illegal
> > > > > > > > activities by arguing that America was fighting a
two-fron> t war at the
> > > > > > > > time — one in Nam and the other on the streets of the
US> ..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You don't have to agree with his argument, but it has
it> s merits. For
> > > > > > > > example, the Weather Underground (known as the
Weatherme> n at that
> > > > > > > > time) had declared war on America, ostensibly because
of> the Vietnam
> > > > > > > > War, and they served notice to the media that they
inten> ded to
> > > > > > > > detonate bombs at key strategic targets to make their
poin> t. Obviously
> > > > > > > > this does not justify Liddy's illegal activities, but
it> substantiates
> > > > > > > > his point. America was fighting two wars though not
everyo> ne
> > > > > > > > recognized it. (On a side note, I wonder how the
Weather> men justified
> > > > > > > > committing illegal activities to prosecute a war against
t> he citizens
> > > > > > > > of the US in order to terminate another war that they
deem> ed illegal.
> > > > > > > > Somehow this strikes me as problematic.)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regardless, I agree with Dr. Campbell's point. Barack
Hu> ssein Obama
> > > > > > > > has an absolute moral obligation to divorce himself
comple> tely from
> > > > > > > > Bill Ayers and his ilk, if for no other reason than to
r> eassure the
> > > > > > > > American people that he and the self-admitted domestic
ter> rorist do
> > > > > > > > not share the same ideological agenda.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For example, Mr. Obama threw Rev. Wright under the bus
w> hen he
> > > > > > > > realized that Main Street USA would have none of
the "God
> damn
> > > > > > > > America" stuff, but it took a few weeks of public
teeth-> pulling for
> > > > > > > > him to finally drop the hammer on the GD preacher. And
I'm> sure it was
> > > > > > > > sincere, because I for one genuinely believe that Mr.
Ob> ama attended
> > > > > > > > that church for 20 years, calling Wright a "father-like
> figure" all
> > > > > > > > the while, and never once heard him utter any of his
wel> l-documented
> > > > > > > > profanities. That's comparable to someone attending
Christ> Church for
> > > > > > > > the last 20 years and denying that they ever heard
Wilson
> advocate on
> > > > > > > > behalf of the Lost Cause. Or Southern slavery. Or
somethin> g like that.
> > > > > > > > As I said, it's entirely believable. But that Mr. Obama
> has thus far
> > > > > > > > refused to banish Bill Ayers to a Wright-like fate
should
> trouble
> > > > > > > > everyone.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, Dr. Campbell makes an excellent point when he
write> s, "Here is
> > > > > > > > another analogy. Should Barry Bonds be elected to the
Base> ball Hall of
> > > > > > > > Fame? After all, he has more homeruns than anyone in
bas> eball history.
> > > > > > > > Surely he would have hit enough homeruns to gain
membershi> p in the
> > > > > > > > Hall even if he didn't cheat. Does that matter? Were you
C> ommissioner
> > > > > > > > of Baseball, would it be appropriate for you to
associat> e with one of
> > > > > > > > the guys who sold him steroids? Or should you, would
you> , distance
> > > > > > > > yourself from him?"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So what reason does presidential candidate Barack Obama
gi> ve for not
> > > > > > > > distancing himself from Bill Ayers? If you examine the
Oba> ma website,
> > > > > > > > you'll see a lot of whitewashing of Ayers' history but
no
> > > > > > > > explanations. Moreover, you won't see any account for
th> ose missing
> > > > > > > > years when Obama served on the CAC board with Ayers. And
a> s Stanley
> > > > > > > > Kurtz observed, "Despite having authored two
autobiograp> hies, Barack
> > > > > > > > Obama has never written about his most important
executive> experience.
> > > > > > > > >From 1995 to 1999, he led an education foundation
calle> d the Chicago
> > > > > > > > Annenberg Challenge (CAC), and remained on the board
unt> il 2001. The
> > > > > > > > group poured more than $100 million into the hands of
comm> unity
> > > > > > > > organizers and radical education activists." (WSJ)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122212856075765367.html
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In fact, CAC is Mr. Obama's primary executive
experience> , which
> > > > > > > > probably explains why he cannot divorce himself from
Ayers> — he needs
> > > > > > > > him as a reference on his resume. But I wonder, is it
ac> ceptable that
> > > > > > > > Obama did not distance himself from Ayers? Was it
appropri> ate for him
> > > > > > > > to obtain this experience by serving on the board of a
so-> called
> > > > > > > > educational foundation with its founder who happens to
be
> a
> > > > > > > > braggadocios bomb-thrower?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In asking these questions, I'm not implying that Obama
w> ants to be
> > > > > > > > known as Obomba; I'm simply saying that something's
amis> s. Obama did
> > > > > > > > not separate himself from the founder of the Weathermen
an> d he still
> > > > > > > > has not done so.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And this makes me wonder why Bill Ayers targeted public
ed> ucation for
> > > > > > > > reform. After all, this is the street radical who
called> upon his
> > > > > > > > generation to "kill their parents," and if you peruse
hi> s blog
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://billayers.wordpress.com/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > you'll see that time has done little to dull his edge
(don> 't let the
> > > > > > > > Communist star bother you, I'm sure it's purely
decorati> ve). What
> > > > > > > > could this man possibly want to impart to youth and why
di> d Obama
> > > > > > > > serve with him on his board 13 years ago? Do they share
th> e same
> > > > > > > > worldview?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > These are all fair questions but the question I want Mr.
O> bama to
> > > > > > > > answer is the one posed by Dr. Campbell: "Should you,
wo> uld you,
> > > > > > > > distance yourself from him?"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But since Mr. Obama has not answered this question, and
> since the
> > > > > > > > Weathermen named themselves after Dylan's trademark line
i> n the song
> > > > > > > > "Subterranean Homesick Blues," allow me to leave you
wit> h it: "You
> > > > > > > > don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind
i> s blowin'."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You can sing it with me or, if you prefer, you can
sin> g along with the
> > > > > > > > Weather Underground on their recently released
songbook,> "Sing a
> > > > > > > > Battle Song: The Revolutionary Poetry, Statements,
and> Communiqués of
> > > > > > > > the Weather Underground 1970–1974." Who knows — if
Bar> ack Obama has
> > > > > > > > his way, the public school near you may be teaching
thes> e words to
> > > > > > > > your children.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
http://www.amazon.com/Sing%20Battle%20Song%20Revolutionary> %
20Underground/dp/1583227261/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221582>
294&sr=8%201
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 9/24/08, joekc at roadrunner.com <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Roger,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Watergate is significant not for the event itself but
b> ecause it revealed a host of other illegal
> > > > > > > > > activities performed by the Committee to Re-Elect the
P> resident (CREEP). I won't list these since
> > > > > > > > > Andreas already mentioned many of those activities.
Or
> you could just google "Watergate" and
> > > > > > > > > find out the list for yourself. Again, it was not
jus> t Watergate. Liddy was part of a team that
> > > > > > > > > performed numerous illegal activities to steal a
presid> ential election.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Suppose that you were running for office and you
found
> out that a group of Democrats rigged the
> > > > > > > > > primary so that you would win (thinking you had the
wor> se chance of winning in the main
> > > > > > > > > election), stole and released private files
indicatin> g that your campaign manager had psychiatric
> > > > > > > > > problems (I'm trying to find the closest analogy to a
V> P in your case), performed illegal wire taps,
> > > > > > > > > and broke into your campaign headquarters. Later you
ar> e crushed in the election, loosing by a
> > > > > > > > > landslide. Are you really going to tell me that you
wou> ld shrug it off and say, "Oh, well, it doesn't
> > > > > > > > > matter since the election wasn't even close!"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The fact is that we'll never know how close the
electio> n would have been were it not for the
> > > > > > > > > actions of CREEP (including Liddy and others).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Here is another analogy. Should Barry Bonds be
elected
> to the Baseball Hall of Fame? After all, he
> > > > > > > > > has more homeruns than anyone in baseball history.
Sure> ly he would have hit enough homeruns to
> > > > > > > > > gain membership in the Hall even if he didn't cheat.
Do> es that matter? Were you Commissioner of
> > > > > > > > > Baseball, would it be appropriate for you to
associat> e with one of the guys who sold him steroids?
> > > > > > > > > Or should you, would you, distance yourself from
hi> m?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Joe Campbell
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Joe
> > > > > > > > > > I dont condone the watergate group, but it did not
> change the election. Do you also condemn Linden Johnson and the Chicago
Dem> ocratic machine who have stolen elections?
> > > > > > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > > > > > -----Original message-----
> > > > > > > > > > From: joekc at roadrunner.com
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:25:01 -0700
> > > > > > > > > > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Roger,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > How can the destruction of property be worse,
les> s democratic, than directly subverting an election?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > Joe Campbell
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ---- lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Elections have been stolen from the beginning
of> this county. Linden Johnson stole the election in his first run for
congre> ss (missing ballot boxes) and the chicago machine (dead people
voting).
Non> e of this is right and the people responsible should have been
prosecuted.
> The destruction of property (with it's implicit danger of killing people)
t> o provoke a change is also a subversion of the democratic system and is
muc> h worse. Both should be roundly condemned.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:16:48 -0700
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: joekc at roadrunner.com, "g. crabtree"
jampot> @roadrunner.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack
Oba> ma
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You are factually incorrect here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "2. Ayers is worse than Liddy in that he
reckle> ssly endangered lives and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > property while Liddy orchestrated a failed
brea> k in. McGovern was never a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > viable candidate and what occurred at the
Water> gate hotel did not alter the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > outcome of the election in '72. Both men were
a> ttempting to "circumvent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the democratic process" but only one was
willin> g to risk the lives of those
> > > > > > > > > > > > > who had nothing to do with his goals."
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Nixon was not after McGovern, he was after
Mu> skie. Muskie was the leading candidate for the Democratic Nomination in
197> 2. McGovern was a dark horse who did well in caucuses. Muskie was a
serious> threat to Nixon. Nixon had established at Dirty Tricks Campaign
against
Mu> skie.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subverting justice and attempting to rig a
nati> onal election is a very serious crime.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Donovan
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, g. crabtree
<jampot at ro> adrunner.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack
O> bama
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: joekc at roadrunner.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 7:20
> AM
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree with your summary somewhat. I
would> modify it as follows:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. What Ayers did was bad and what Liddy did
wa> s bad.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Ayers is worse than Liddy in that he
reckles> sly endangered lives and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > property while Liddy orchestrated a failed
brea> k in. McGovern was never a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > viable candidate and what occurred at the
Water> gate hotel did not alter the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > outcome of the election in '72. Both men were
a> ttempting to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "circumvent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the democratic process" but only one was
willin> g to risk the lives of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > > > who had nothing to do with his goals.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Neither is a major issue in the upcoming
ele> ction but, you are judged by
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the company you keep. Ayers is an unrepentant
c> ommunist terrorist.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. If Liddy is an issue (and, as you pointed
> out, he's not) Ayers still is.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > He, along with Barry's other friends and
ment> ors Frank Marshall Davis, Saul
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Alinsky, Jeremiah Wright, etc. give us a
ma> jor insight into what we can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > expect from the anointed one and many,
myself> included, do not like what is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > revealed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > g
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 7:32 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack
O> bama
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary (if I may),
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry for suggesting that you don't know
an> ything about American
> > > > > > > > > > > > > history. It was a sarcastic
> > > > > > > > > > > > > comment, a failed attempt at humor: "If you
t> hink that Nixon resigned
> > > > > > > > > > > > > because of a botched
> > > > > > > > > > > > > burglary, then ..."
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Nonetheless, Liddy was not a "foot soldier."
> He was a chief
> > > > > > > > > > > > > operative. Maybe
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not a general (Nixon)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > or a lieutenant (Dean) but not a private,
mor> e like a sergeant, like William
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Cally. Certainly others
> > > > > > > > > > > > > were perhaps more responsible, but weren't
Ca> lly and Liddy also responsible
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for their actions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, I'm not trying to suggest that
McCain> should "disassociate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > himself
> > > > > > > > > > > > > from the man." I believe
> > > > > > > > > > > > > in redemption. I can wrap my head around the
id> ea that Liddy is reformed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not asking McCain
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to distance himself from Liddy (though were I
r> unning, I'd want to make it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > clear that cheating is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not the American way).
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You've forgotten about the initial thread.
The
> point is that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Republican's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > have been suggesting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that the Obama-Ayers connection is an issue.
If> you google "Obama Ayers
> > > > > > > > > > > > > controversy" you get:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama–Ayers_cont> roversy
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But if you google "McCain Liddy controversy"
th> ere is no similar
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wikipedia
> > > > > > > > > > > > > listing. Or any listing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that deals with this "controversy" since it
is
> not a controversy.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the initial point of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > post, namely. that if the former is a
controv> ersy, then so should be the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > latter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm happy to say that McCain-and-Liddy is
fine
> (though I find it odd that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > someone who is running
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for the presidency of the US doesn't distance
h> imself from someone who has
> > > > > > > > > > > > > tried to circumvent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the democratic process). But then what is all
t> his hay about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Obama-and-Ayers?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To summarize:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Ayers is bad and Liddy is bad. (I'm not
sugg> esting that Ayers is good.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Liddy is worse than Ayers (one blew up
build> ings; the other was part of a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > team that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > succeeded in winning a presidential
election,> in part, by cheating).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Neither is an issue in the recent
election> , for guilt by association is a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > fallacy.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. If Ayers is an issue (and Republicans have
m> ade it an issue), then Liddy
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is a bigger issue.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > All the best, Joe
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
wrot> e:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know a bit about American history and
Water> gate in particular. Are you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > trying to tell me that Watergate was all
abou> t G. Gordon Liddy? Liddy was
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > minor player in the Watergate scandal, a
fo> ot soldier who ended up bearing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the brunt of the punishment for people
above
> him. John Dean, A Watergate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > principal who has been held up on this
forum
> as a man whose opinion is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > worthy of respectful consideration, had
far> more to do with Watergate and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it's subsequent cover up then Liddy ever
did> .. Liddy readily admitted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > he did the crime, he did the time, he
pai> d his debt to society and has
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > gone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > on to lead a decent life. That McCain
should
> have to move heaven and earth
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to disassociate himself from the man seems
un> reasonable.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > g
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:38
P> M
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers &
Barack> Obama
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are twisting the argument. No one is
st> icking up for Ayers. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is that if Ayers matters
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to Obama's reputation, Liddy should
matte> r to McCain's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Another point is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that, relatively speaking,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ayers is not worse than Liddy and Liddy
is
> not better than Ayers. I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Liddy is far worse.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Watergate revealed a much deeper threat
to
> American democracy. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > simple
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact is that Nixon
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cheated in a broad number of ways.
Cheated
> in winning the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > presidential
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > election. Look up "Watergate," do a bit
o> f research, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > learn something
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about American history. Are you trying to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tell me that that Nixon resigned the
presid> ency merely because of an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unsuccessful burglary?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What does democracy stand for if not for
fa> ir elections for the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > presidency
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of the US, where the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people may be certain that the choice is
th> e product of their will
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the will of a select few?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you think that Barry Bonds deserves
the
> home run king crown if it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > turns
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > out that he took
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > steroids? No. He cheated. At the very
least> , Nixon cheated in his
> > > > > > > > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > presidential bid, cheated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in an election for the president of the
US.> He won unfairly and Liddy
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helped.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Ayers did not get off scot free. The
ch> arges were dropped. Why?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Prosecutorial misconduct.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe Campbell
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- "g. crabtree"
<jampot at roadrunner.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I guess since the argument being put
forwa> rd is that Ayers should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> given a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> bye because he didn't really cause any
har> m, the same slack
> > > > > > > > > > > > > needs to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> granted to Mr. Liddy. After all, the
Wat> ergate break in was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> unsuccessful
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> the burglars (a fairly incompetent
bunch)
> were all arrested. So,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> presidential campaign was hijacked and
no
> vote was taken out of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> hands
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> the people it seems to me that you are
hol> ding G.Gordon to a much
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> higher
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> standard. At the very least Ayers
committe> d an act of gross
> > > > > > > > > > > > > vandalism
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> reckless endangerment and got off Scot
fre> e. Liddy was complicit
> > > > > > > > > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> failed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> break in and did five and a half years.
He> did the crime and he
> > > > > > > > > > > > > did the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> time. Throwing in some silly disclaimer
wh> enever his name comes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> seems
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> daft and unnecessary as saying "setting
of> f bombs designed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to maximize
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> injury and death in public places is a
ver> y, very bad thing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> g
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008
7:2> 0 AM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers &
Bar> ack Obama
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > What would be worse: a terrorist from
an> other land blowing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > up some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > buildings or a terrorist from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > another land hijacking a presidential
ca> mpaign and ensuring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that one
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > candidate wins over
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > another? I think that hijacking a
presid> ential campaign is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > about the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > worst
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > thing that anyone can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > do in a democracy. I'm a bit shocked
tha> t not everyone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sees it this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > way.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Like Donovan I'm no fan
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of Ayers but to post anything on this
to> pic without
> > > > > > > > > > > > > condemning Liddy
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > seems
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > to be an insult to our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > form of government. Why not at least
thr> ow in a "Oh, by
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > taking
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > vote for president out
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of the people and putting it into the
ha> nds of a few is a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > very, very
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > bad
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > thing."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Joe Campbell
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ---- "g. crabtree"
<jampot at roadrunner.co> m>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Read what I wrote. I did not claim
that> he killed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > anyone. I said
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> act of setting off explosives wrapped
i> n nails in public
> > > > > > > > > > > > > places is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> akin
> > > > > > > >; > > > > > > >> >> to attempted murder. If I light
your> apartment building
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on fire and,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> by
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> the grace of God, no one is injured
o> r killed am I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > mearly guilty of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> failure to obtain a permit for an
open
> burn?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> g
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 ;
> g. crabtree
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 17,
20> 08 11:46 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill
Ayers
> & Barack
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Obama
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Gary,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> I don't condone the actions
of
> Ayers. But he
> > > > > > > > > > > > > never killed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> anyone.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> To say he did is an incorrect
statement> .. If you can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > demonstrate to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> me
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> (an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> online article etc.) he killed
someone> , I will accept
> > > > > > > > > > > > > your statement
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> fact. Otherwise, I say your judgment
> and understanding
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> matter
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> deeply in question.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Best Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Donovan
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> --- On Wed, 9/17/08, g.
cra> btree
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: g. crabtree
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Bil> l Ayers &
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Barack Obama
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> To:
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.> com,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Andreas Schou"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> <ophite at gmail.com>, "vision2020"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Date: Wednesday, September
> 17, 2008, 5:30 AM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> "Are you insinuating that
Bil> l Ayers
> > > > > > > > > > > > > tried to kill
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> people?"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> No, I am not insinuating I
> am saying it flat
> > > > > > > > > > > > > out. Placing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> anti
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> personnel bombs in public places is
att> empted murder.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > When the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> vermin
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Baghdad or Sader City or Fallujah set
o> f IED's they
> > > > > > > > > > > > > don't know the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> names
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> of those they are attempting to
murder
> and maim. Is it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> contention
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> that they are not trying to kill
people> ?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> g
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message
----> -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>; >> From: Donovan Arnold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: Andreas Schou ;
visio> n2020 ; g. crabtree
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Sent: Wednesday,
Septembe> r 17, 2008 1:42 AM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
B> ill Ayers &
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Barack Obama
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> "No small
accomplishm> ent. Oh
> > > > > > > > > > > > > yeah, he has never
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> attempted to slaughter soldiers and
pol> ice via the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cowardly practice
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> hiding and detonating explosives
wrappe> d in nails."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Are you insinuating
t> hat Bill Ayers
> > > > > > > > > > > > > tried to kill
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> people? I am no fan of Ayers. But I
thi> nk you are off
> > > > > > > > > > > > > base saying he
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> killed, or even attempted to kill
peo> ple. If you think
> > > > > > > > > > > > > this, please
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> provide us with the names of people
Aye> rs attempted to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > kill, or who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> he
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> killed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> The people that
McCai> n worked for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > between 1979 and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> 1992
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> harmed more people than Ayers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Best Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Donovan
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> --- On Tue,
9/16/08> , g. crabtree
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: g. crabtree
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re:
[Visio> n2020] Bill Ayers
> > > > > > > > > > > > > & Barack
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Obama
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: "Andreas
Schou"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <ophite at gmail.com>,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> "vision2020"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Date: Tuesday,
Se> ptember 16, 2008,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 7:24 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> So what's your problem with the G-
Man?
> The guy did
> > > > > > > > > > > > > his time in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> anything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> country club conditions until your
hero> , James Earl
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Carter, commuted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> his
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> sentence. He never ratted out his
assoc> iates and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > he's managed to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> support
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> himself and his family as an ex-con.
No> small
> > > > > > > > > > > > > accomplishment. Oh
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> yeah,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> he
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> has never attempted to slaughter
soldie> rs and police via
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> cowardly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> practice of hiding and detonating
explo> sives wrapped in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nails. All
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> things
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> considered, I know that I would much
> rather associate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with a man who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> served
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> his time and was released from prison
t> han an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > unrepentant attempted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> murderer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> whose only regret is that he couldn't
c> ause more
> > > > > > > > > > > > > carnage and mayhem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> course that's just me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> g
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: "Andreas Schou"
<ophite at gmail.com> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: "vision2020"
<vision2020 at moscow.com> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008
6> :32 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers &
Bara> ck Obama
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > They both knew each other. They
were
> both appointed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to co-chair an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > education panel by Mayor Daley,
and> the prior state
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Senator from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Obama's seat introduced him at Bill
A> yers'
> > > > > > > > > > > > > house. No large,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> ongoing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > connection. But here's the thing:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Why isn't John McCain's friendship
wi> th G.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Gordon Liddy a campaign
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > issue? Is there any defensible
reason> for treating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Liddy like a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > rehabilitated member of the
community> , rather than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > as a threat to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Republic? If so, why?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > -- ACS
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
===============> =========================> ===============
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > List services made available by
First> Step
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Internet,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > serving the communities of the
Palous> e since 1994.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
===============> =========================> ===============
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
=============> =========================> =================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> List services made available by
First
> Step Internet,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> serving the communities of the
Palouse> since 1994.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
=============> =========================> =================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
=============> =========================> =================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> List services made available by
First
> Step Internet,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> serving the communities of the
Palouse> since 1994.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
=============> =========================> =================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
=============> =========================> =================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > List services made available by First
St> ep Internet,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > serving the communities of the Palouse
s> ince 1994.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
=============> =========================> =================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
===============> =========================> ===============
> > > > > > > > > > > > > List services made available by First Step
Int> ernet,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since
1> 994.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
===============> =========================> ===============
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
==================> =========================> ============
> > > > > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > > > >
==================> =========================> ============
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
===================> =========================> ===========
> > > > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > > >
===================> =========================> ===========
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
=====================> =========================> =========
> > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > >
=====================> =========================> =========
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
======================> =========================> ========
> > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >
======================> =========================> ========
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
========================> =========================> ======
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >
========================> =========================> ======
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home, work, or
on> the go.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/>
"Jesus was a community organizer and Poncius Pilate was a governor."
- Marilyn Trail, sister of Representative Tom trail (September 8, 2008)
----
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent by First Step Internet.
http://www.fsr.com/
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list