[Vision2020] And the Hits Just keep On Coming . . .

[g. crabtree]

My goodness, I guess from your reply that your plan is to make yourself too obnoxious to ignore. I assume that the "lie" you are referring to comes from a response I posted to a question put to me by Sunil Ramalingam on 10/28/07 at 2:03 P.M. in which I said in part:

"...I reserve the prefix for MD's and introductions where using the term will convey due respect and information in that context."

Since I was not sure if Mr. Schou was aware of Jeff's professional status and expertise on the subject being discussed, I was in effect trying to introduce him and his credentials using terms that convey respect and information, pretty much exactly like I said in the post. Perhaps you should have gone back and made sure of what it was I actually said. Once again you are proven wrong and it sort of looks like the liar is you.

Anyway, here we go again. I guess it's time to restart the pool on how long it will take for you to stalk off in a huff, swearing you'll never "discourse with me on any subject ever again," and for how long you will sulk before slinking on back to the forum. (will the usual interested parties please contact me off-list) Don't you ever get tired of this ridiculously juvenile cycle?

g


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Jeff Harkins" <jeffh at moscow.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And the Hits Just keep On Coming . . .


>I just wanted to point out that you are a liar. That is all. Previously you claimed that you didn't use the label "Dr." for anyone other than medical doctors. Something that your parents taught you. You lied. It is not a big deal but folks should know.
> 
> And I'll respond to you whenever I wish. The fact that you are a jackass doesn't deter me.
> 
> --
> Joe Campbell
> 
> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote: 
>> I assume you mean Dr. Harkins and no, he is not a medical doctor. He is 
>> someone for whom I have respect. A better question would have to be why are 
>> you addressing comments to me directly when we all know what the eventual 
>> outcome of that all too familiar path? I really don't want to repeat the 
>> cycle for what will have to be what, the fifth or sixth time? Hows about I 
>> make you a deal. I won't respond to your comments to the V and you ignore 
>> mine. You know that ultimately you'll be a much happier camper if you do.
>> 
>> g
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: <joekc at roadrunner.com>
>> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> Cc: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Jeff 
>> Harkins" <jeffh at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:13 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And the Hits Just keep On Coming . . .
>> 
>> 
>> > "Dr. Hawkins"? Is he a medical doctor?
>> > --
>> > Joe Campbell
>> >
>> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Is it your contention that Dr. Harkins CPA,  Professor Emeritus of the
>> >> University of Idaho Collage of Business, Department of Accounting is 
>> >> unable
>> >> to read a small town budget report and has the facts all wrong? If so, 
>> >> the
>> >> appropriate cites from the City of Wasilla records that you so carefully
>> >> checked out would be greatly appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Or, as is somewhat more likely given previous discussions I have had with
>> >> you on this forum, did you lift the whole thing in its entirety from the
>> >> huffington post and throw that bit about primary sources in an attempt to
>> >> lend a semblance of authenticity and credence to your argument?
>> >>
>> >> If you are willing to fudge the facts "when what's at stake is fifty
>> >> people's opinion of the Republican vice presidential candidate" are you
>> >> willing to prevaricate in front of twelve jurors when what's at stake is
>> >> your version of justice? Are you willing to tweak the evidence to have 
>> >> the
>> >> court see things your way? Massage the truth to get one lonely judge to 
>> >> buy
>> >> in to your way of thinking? If so, I see a bright future ahead for you in
>> >> the legal community, God help us all.
>> >>
>> >> g
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
>> >> To: "Jeff Harkins" <jeffh at moscow.com>
>> >> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 1:17 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And the Hits Just keep On Coming . . .
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Jeff --
>> >> >
>> >> > What you're saying is that "yes, what you're saying is true true" but
>> >> > also that "yes, I also plan to smear you."
>> >> >
>> >> > So, let's start with the smears and implicit threats. Really, Doc
>> >> > Harkins? You plan on reporting me to the Dean of Students? Over the
>> >> > fact that I had been pointed in the right direction to find primary
>> >> > resources? Look, I'm not apparently not so so good at this -- could
>> >> > you get me the ABA citation rules for writing a bibliography for an
>> >> > email argument?
>> >> >
>> >> > So, why don't you just do that, Doc. The appropriate person to contact
>> >> > would be Richard Seamon. Richard at uidaho.edu. Why don't you see how it
>> >> > turns out. I'd certainly be interested. It's certainly more than
>> >> > slightly ridiculous for a tenured academic to tilt at this particular
>> >> > windmill, when what's at stake is fifty people's opinion of the
>> >> > Republican vice presidential candidate.
>> >> >
>> >> > Having disposed of that, let's go back to the beginning. I started out
>> >> > by reading Tom's post, though I'd been aware of the issue for a while
>> >> > before. I think I first read about it on the American Prospect's blog.
>> >> > Later the same day, though only incidentally, I read about the same
>> >> > issue on the Washington Monthly's blog -- there's a Hilzoy post there
>> >> > and on Obsidian Wings. In the comments section in (I'm relatively
>> >> > sure) one of the two places, someone had dropped in a link to the
>> >> > Document Center and cut+paste and page numbers from the .pdfs, as well
>> >> > as Mayor Palin's signature line. I double-checked the '98 and '95
>> >> > reports in order to confirm that I wasn't being fed a line of BS. You
>> >> > too can double-check the '98 line item on page 65; that's the one I
>> >> > still have on my desktop.
>> >> >
>> >> > In other words, yes, I knew page numbers from the very beginning, and
>> >> > from secondary sources. I neither scooped nor claimed to scoop anyone.
>> >> > If the confession you're looking for is that I did not troll through
>> >> > 300 pages of financial disclosures in order to write a three-paragraph
>> >> > response, I can only respond that there is a difference between due
>> >> > diligence in checking your facts and obsessive-compulsive disorder.
>> >> >
>> >> > -- ACS
>> >> >
>> >> > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com> 
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> Yes, the internet is a wonderful research tool.  And I certainly agree
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> using the primary sources - avoids the problem of bias in summarized
>> >> >> digests
>> >> >> of info.  It also alleviates all those messy citations.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So, I had no problem getting to the Document Central and in particular
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> historical operating and capital budgets as well as the  audited
>> >> >> financial
>> >> >> statements.  But I was somewhat skeptical when I began to review the
>> >> >> budgets
>> >> >> and, as would be normal, the budgets were all summarized by function - 
>> >> >> so
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> could pick out the Police budget, but not the detailed expenditures.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Same story for the Audited Financial Statements.  They were all there,
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> it would have been surprising for the financials to be reporting
>> >> >> expenditures at the sub-object level.  The details of expenditures 
>> >> >> were
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> there.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Then it hit me - how did you obtain all those names and details from
>> >> >> financial reports?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> so - a few nanoseconds on Google and up pops an article on the 
>> >> >> Huffington
>> >> >> Post.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Below is an excerpt from the story by
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Jacob Alperin-Sheriff
>> >> >>
>> >> >> and here is the full citation:
>> >> >> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jacob-alperinsheriff/sarah-palin-instituted-ra_b_125833.html
>> >> >> However, I was able to eventually track down Irl Stambaugh, police 
>> >> >> chief
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> Wasilla from the founding of the department until Sarah Palin fired 
>> >> >> him
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> "not fully supporting her efforts to govern." Stambaugh sued for 
>> >> >> breach
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> contract, but lost when a federal judge ruled that "police chiefs 
>> >> >> serve
>> >> >> at
>> >> >> the behest of the mayor unless otherwise specified." He later served 
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> executive director of the Alaska Police Standards Council.
>> >> >> It turns out that Wasilla did not bill sexual assault victims for the
>> >> >> cost
>> >> >> of rape exams while Irl Stambaugh was chief of police. As chief, he 
>> >> >> had
>> >> >> included a line item in the budget to pay for the cost of such exams. 
>> >> >> He
>> >> >> had
>> >> >> only just heard about the Mayor Palin/Chief Fannon policy today, and 
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> just as shocked to hear about it as I was.
>> >> >> Checking the budget confirmed former Chief Stambaugh's claim. He had
>> >> >> included a contingency of $15,000 in his budget for the department's 
>> >> >> 1st
>> >> >> year of existence (1993-1994), $5,000 for 1994-1995 and 1995-1996, and
>> >> >> $13,000 for his final year as police chief in 1996-1997, spending
>> >> >> $11,625.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Duwayne Charles Fannon, his replacement, halved the budget request in
>> >> >> 1997-1998, with a request of $7,298, spending $3,454. However, it 
>> >> >> seems
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> began the "victim pays" policy in the 1998-1999 fiscal year. That 
>> >> >> year,
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> requested $3,000 but spent only $205. This data can be found in the
>> >> >> Document
>> >> >> Central section of Wasilla's website. I am to understand that you are
>> >> >> studying law (first year?).  You have some explaining to do.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You stated that you obtained information from a primary source.  That
>> >> >> does
>> >> >> not appear to be substantiated by the facts.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It does appear that you plagiarized the material and you 
>> >> >> misrepresented
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> basis for your report (that is, at best, disingenuous and, at worst, a
>> >> >> gross
>> >> >> misrepresentation or lie).  Perhaps you have an explanation that I 
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> overlooked something.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have no interest in any further dialogue with you.  But, I would 
>> >> >> hope
>> >> >> that, should my rationale be correct, you have enough honor to 
>> >> >> apologize
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> all the posters on the viz and, if you are indeed a law student, that 
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> report your actions to the Dean of the Law School. Remember, this is a
>> >> >> public forum so your comments will remain in perpetuity.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This has been a great disappointment!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> At 06:38 PM 9/12/2008, you wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com> 
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> Because you don't know the context of Wasilla and it residents, hence 
>> >> >>> a
>> >> >>> potential for bias on your part.  And no, Palin, as Mayor, could not
>> >> >>> dictate
>> >> >>> a budget policy - that can only be done by the Council.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Read the statute for municipal government in AK.  By the way, for the
>> >> >>> most
>> >> >>> part, Idaho municipalities are subject to the same laws.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Both states require public oversight of budget creation and budget
>> >> >>> implementation.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Jeff --
>> >> >>
>> >> >> We live in the era of the Internet.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So let's just move past all the secondary sources and take a look at
>> >> >> primary sources, shall we? The City of Wasilla has kindly published
>> >> >> all of its budgets for the years when Sarah Palin was governor, so we
>> >> >> can all see what happened. In the '93-'94 fiscal year, Irl Stambaugh
>> >> >> requested (and received) a $15,000 contingency line item for sexual
>> >> >> assault exams, a $5,000 contingency line item for the '94-'95 fiscal
>> >> >> year, and a $13,000 contingency line item for the '95-'96 fiscal year.
>> >> >> He spent around $10,000 of that money over the three years (if you're
>> >> >> interested, again, you can total it up).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Then Sarah Palin fired him.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The new police chief halved the line item request, to $7,298, and
>> >> >> spent around half of that. The 'victim pays' policy was instituted the
>> >> >> next year, under Sarah Palin's watch, and only $205 of the $3,000
>> >> >> allocated was spent on sexual assault exams--though I'm not quite sure
>> >> >> what that $205 was spent on, as it's not enough to cover the cost of a
>> >> >> whole sexual assault exam. That same year, the law was enacted to
>> >> >> prevent Wasilla--the only municipality in Alaska to have that
>> >> >> policy--from continuing as it had. (Incidentally, that policy
>> >> >> endangered statewide VAWA funding.)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The facts essentially go like this: Sarah Palin fires the old police
>> >> >> chief and hires a hand-selected new police chief. That new police
>> >> >> chief requests a rape-exam line item, and continues to request rape
>> >> >> exam line items throughout his career. However, despite the money
>> >> >> being allocated, the new police chief refuses to spend it. The issue
>> >> >> in Wasilla is sufficiently bad that it alerts the legislature, which
>> >> >> starts to pass a law to prevent Wasilla to continue with its policy;
>> >> >> furthermore, the issue is raised in statewide media. If Palin was not
>> >> >> aware of her handpicked police chief's policy--a policy which was on
>> >> >> her desk as a specific budget line item, the subject of statewide
>> >> >> legislation, and the subject of statewide media coverage--then she is
>> >> >> merely an incompetent executive, rather than a heartless supporter of
>> >> >> 'a la carte' law enforcement.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -- ACS
>> >> >>
>> >> >> * Anyone who's interested in trolling through budgets to confirm what
>> >> >> I said can find those budgets here:
>> >> >> http://www.cityofwasilla.com/index.aspx?page=136. If only Moscow had
>> >> >> something similar.
>> >> >
>> >> > =======================================================
>> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >> >               http://www.fsr.net
>> >> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> > =======================================================
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> =======================================================
>> >>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >>                http://www.fsr.net
>> >>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> =======================================================
>> >
>> > 
>> 
>> 
> 
>
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