[Vision2020] Smart Growth/ was Recall the city council

[Garrett Clevenger]

g,
   
I have no problem with folks who disagree with my
views necessarily.  There are times when I don't even
agree with myself.  But when you insinuate I am a
liar, I draw the line.  Also, while it may make you
feel good to write "I don't care about your overall
world view," it seems an attempt at belittling me,
thus an attack. But frankly, I don't care if you don't
care.  Perhaps about as much as you don't care if I
don't give you anymore business. I suppose the $40 or
so dollars I've spent in your Lock Shop over the years
doesn't amount to much anyways, either.
   
It doesn't surprise me that the "overwhelming majority
of vision members" you refer to are turned off by your
aggressiveness.  I hope if I come across that way
people will tell me.  While I can be just as vitriolic
with my words as you, that is not my intent in
engaging people on this list.  But when I feel pushed,
I will want to push back.  While I may be a peacenik,
that doesn't mean I won't defend my character, country
or people I love.

Perhaps you are omniscient, knowing all the facts, but
I still rely on mortal input, and reports in
newspapers are one source.  I admit that newspapers
can be misleading, but you have to have sources of
info.  But seriously, where do you get your facts and
why should we believe them?

The speculation I was referring to was your opinion on
the economic benefits of Hawkins to Moscow when you
present few facts as far as I can tell.  In fact, it
seems history is against your point of view, but both
of our opinions regarding the impact are just that:
speculation.  I am basing mine on the facts I have
been presented with and I am willing to consider
anybody's input, even yours.

As I scientist, I admit I speculate.  That's how
theories are advanced.  But evidence is required to
support that, and when there is counter-evidence, I
believe I am open-minded enough to change my point of
view.  
   
Regarding the council, the fact is that the GMA's
president owns land across the street from the Hawkins
site.  I won't say Steve Busch has paid any of his
anointed council members off in cash, but the quid pro
quo of scratching someones back to get something in
return doesn't seem like a far stretch.  The fact is,
human nature indicates people look out for others who
benefit them, and since Busch's land values more than
likely will increase if Hawkins goes through, he is
getting a good return on his investment in his council
members, and I'm sure he will continue his support of
them.  

If there was a possibility for the council to
negotiate with Hawkins about rezoning land for them in
Moscow, which was the argument Hawkins used in saying
they want to buy the land they are proposing, it seems
they had a chance to involve the public more, and
potentially benefit Moscow more.  But the council,
from what I can tell, caved in on the spot.

I don't trust people in power is my point, especially
when it looks like shady deals behind closed doors are
benefiting some financially while other business in
Moscow may pay the price.

Since the council blew the noise ordincance, I admit I
am jaded by their actions.  Having 2 council members
mislead me on their support of the NO doesn't improve
my confidence that these guys can make rational
decisions in an honest way.

My favorite posts from you are your "another
hypocritical conservative" posts.  Though they seem
mostly focused on homosexuality, I assume you
understand that people in power can be hypocritical
and abuse their power.  I'm kind of surprised that you
put so much faith into elected officials, even ones
you vote for.  

This may be pure speculation, but I imagine you and
the council members you support voted for Bush. If
anyone should be called a liar, it is Bush for the
debacle he has created on our planet, based on
incompetence, and perhaps even treachery, often using
lies to get his way.

At this point, I hope most people realize that.

gclev


"g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
  For someone who claims that "all they want are the
facts" you are mighty 
fast and loose with your sources. Goodness knows I am
unaware of what it is 
you might have read in "one of the papers" but
according to the preliminary 
development agreement between Whitman Co. and Hawkins
Companies LLC the 9.1 
million dollar bond will cover water and sewer and if
an "alternative 
source" for these systems is found then "the list of
improvements may be 
modified." No mention of the $ 4 million dollar
"subsidy" you go on and on 
about.

Another example of your unusual notion of facts would
be referring to our 
current city council as "people in power who use their
power for their 
financial gain while screwing over other people."
Where are the facts to 
support this outrageous statement? Do you possess
video of cash changing 
hands? Photocopies of check stubs marked screw Moscow
citizens payments? I 
believe that the council is doing precisely what the
voters that put them in 
office expected then to do and I for one am pleased so
far with their 
performance on most issues. Even if I weren't, I would
be extremely 
reluctant to leap to the conclusion that they were
felons.

I'm sorry if in refuting your erroneous assertions
your feelings are hurt 
and that you perceive my responses as attacks. This is
not my intention. 
Vigorous disagreement, however is not the same thing
as an attack and I'm 
not sure that its up to you to decide what I elect to
respond to on this 
forum or in what manner. If you don't care for my
input you'll hardly be the 
first. Heck, it'll just be another point you'll have
in common with the 
overwhelming majority of vision members. Think of it
as an opportunity to 
bond.

g
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Garrett Clevenger" 
To: "g. crabtree" 
Cc: "vision 2020" 
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Smart Growth/ was Recall the
city council


> g,
>
> The cost of of infrastructure Hawkins estimated it
> would spend was reported in one of the papers. They
> also reported the cost of the development, the
Whitman
> County bond and how that was to be paid. That
> proposal says the bond will be lower if Moscow
> provides water and sewer services.
>
> I base my opinions on what I observe, read, and talk
> with people about. I appreciate v2020 not because I
> care about your world view necessarily, but because
I
> can get a different perspective from people I'm
> sharing this town with. If you can't appreciate
that,
> there is no point in you responding to my posts,
> especially if you do it as an attack. I don't
> appreciate being called a liar.
>
> I don't plan to get in a discussion with you over
the
> super walmart in Moscow, as I have not discussed
this
> on v2020 before, so don't use arguments regarding
that
> relating to my opinion regarding the Whitman County
> subsidy. I don't care what you call that, either, as
> I see it is a giveaway. I hope you are right in your
> world view regarding the future of Moscw, but I
doubt
> it considering my world view. We obviously don't see
> things the same. You may think I spread lies, and I
> may think the same as you. All I want though are the
> facts, not speculation.
>
> The bottom line is I don't trust people in power who
> use their power for their financial gain while
> screwing over other people. Whether that is walmart
> and the billionaire Waltons and their developer
> friends, dictators, or a city council with not
enough
> respect for Moscow, I will speak out when I see a
bad
> deal. If I'm wrong, I'll learn, but I have no intent
> to be a liar.
>
> I hear a new song, and guess what, it has a G and C
> chord.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Garrett Clevenger
>
> --- "g. crabtree" wrote:
>
>> "Do you think that by providing water and sewer
>> services to Hawkins, Moscow is reducing the bond
>> Whitman County agreed to pay to build that
>> infrastructure?"
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure where you come by your 4 million
dollar
>> savings figure or the notion that it will be
>> subtracted from the overall amount of the bond but,
>> lets assume that what you say is fact. Doubtless it
>> will be less expense initially to hook into
Moscow's
>> water and sewer system rather then to drill the
well
>> or wells required and to construct a septic system
>> but, the long term payout for those services will
>> likely be higher and will result in revenue for the
>> City of Moscow. In short, savings for Whitman Co.
>> (and Hawkins) up front, revenue for Moscow in the
>> long run. A quid pro quo, not a subsidy.
>>
>> "Hawkins will be paying back the bond through sales
>> tax, and they expect that business to mostly come
>> from Moscow."
>>
>> Funny, when it was building a Super Wal-Mart, tax
>> revenue generated for Moscow and Latah Co. was
>> dismissed as a pittance. Now that we're talking
>> Hawkins and Whitman it's big bucks and the end of
>> the world. No doubt some of the business that will
>> help to pay off the bond will come from Moscow but,
>> a significant amount will also come from Pullman
and
>> outlying areas as well. Depending on what sorts of
>> businesses locate in the development there is no
>> reason not to expect shoppers from the valley and
>> perhaps further, especially once the improvements
to
>> U.S. Highway 95 are complete. Many of these
>> shoppers will likely patronize other local
>> merchants. Many local venders will likely provide
>> service to the Hawkins development. Many local
>> people will likely be employed at the new retail
>> center. Hawkins is also an Idaho corporation,
>> corporate profit will be taxed in Idaho. Your
>> mournful song of woe that has the endlessly
>> recurring "nothing for Moscow" refrain has
>> definitely become a tedious and unconvincing tune
>> and I'm tired of singing the obvious up-tempo
>> counterpoint.
>>
>> The rest of your post is just too scattered for me
>> to respond. You seem to have a hard time
>> distinguishing (deliberately, I suspect) between
>> subsidy, and tax deduction, tax credit, incentive,
>> market share, efficiency of scale, military
>> objectives and plain old everyday commerce. It is
>> far beyond my ability and my desire to range as far
>> and wide as you seem to want to in this discussion.
>> I don't care about your overall world view. I
>> believe that if you still see Moscow's
participation
>> in the Whitman Co./Hawkins project as subsidization
>> it's because you feel it's an effective offensive
>> tactic in the anti-growth on the
>> Palouse/anti-corporation/big government war and
>> we're back where we started. Repeat the lie, repeat
>> the lie, repeat the lie... ad nauseum.
>>
>> g
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Garrett Clevenger" 
>> To: "g. crabtree" ; "cynthia
>> nichols" 
>> Cc: "Garrett Clevenger" ;
>> "vision 2020" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 11:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Smart Growth/ was Recall
>> the city council
>>
>>
>> >g writes:
>> >
>> > "That was exactly the point I was hoping to make.
>> None
>> > of the items I mentioned, with the exception of
>> the
>> > bus ride, are examples of a subsidy and the city
>> > selling services to a business in Whitman county
>> isn't
>> > either."
>> >
>> >
>> > The point I'm getting from your response is that
>> you
>> > are not addressing the point I keep bringing up,
>> that
>> > Moscow is subsidizing Whitman County's growth.
>> You
>> > are good at evading my point, and reading your
>> > response to Cynthia, you don't have a grasp on
how
>> > those things you mentioned are indeed subsidized,
>> so I
>> > can see why you don't understand my point. But
>> let's
>> > make sure:
>> >
>> > Do you think that by providing water and sewer
>> > services to Hawkins, Moscow is reducing the bond
>> > Whitman County agreed to pay to build that
>> > infrastructure?
>> >
>> > Whitman agreed to pay $10 million, and that
>> agreement
>> > even mentions that Moscow may provide water and
>> sewer,
>> > thus the bond would be reduced down to around $6
>> > million. Moscow is saving Whitman County $4
>> million,
>> > money they can now use for other projects. I
>> would
>> > say Moscow is subsidizing Whitman County because
>> > Whitman County has not agreed to give anything
>> back to
>> > Moscow.
>> >
>> > What part of this do you not agree with?
>> >
>> > Whitman sold the bond as being self-paying, that
>> is,
>> > Hawkins will be paying back the bond through
sales
>> > tax, and they expect that business to mostly come
>> from
>> > Moscow. Thus, Moscow has decreased tax revenue
>> and an
>> > infrastructure that is being taxed through use by
>> > development in Whitman County.
>> >
>> > Retail development is not necessarily economic
>> growth.
>> > In fact, it can be an economic drain. Roughly the
>> > same amount of money will exchange hands, but now
>> it
>> > will be shared with an out of state development.
>> > Hawinks expects to make at least $100 million
back
>> to
>> > pay for their development, and that money more
>> than
>> > likely will come from Moscow.
>> >
>> > To clarify the sarcastic subsidies you mentioned,
>> I
>> > would like to point out why you were correct
>> > originally when you said they are subsidies:
>> >
>> > g writes:
>> >
>> > "your own life is subsidized in nearly every
>> possible
>> > way.
>> >
>> > "It's cheaper and more convenient for you to go
to
>> > Wal-Mart and buy your clothes then it is to grow
>> > cotton and raise wool and sew your own."
>> >
>> >
>> > Wal-Mart's market clout gives it all kinds of tax
>> > benefits. How many towns bow down to Wal-Mart's
>> > demands, paying for infrastructure such as
Whitman
>> > County did for Hawkins. That is subsidy. Plus,
>> since
>> > most of Wal-Mart's products come from China, we
>> are
>> > subsidizing China's wealth through loss of jobs
>> here
>> > in the US. The cheap products you can buy would
>> not
>> > be so cheap if it weren't for cheap labor in
>> China.
>> > If there was a level playing field, I imagine
most
>> of
>> > those jobs would stay in the US.
>> >
>> > g writes:
>> >
>> > "It's cheaper and more convenient to buy your
>> gasoline
>> > from a local retailer then to drill and refine
>> your
>> > own."
>> >
>> >
>> > Oil companies too get all kinds of tax breaks.
>> Plus,
>> > they have the US military on their side to insure
>> they
>>
> === message truncated ===
>