[Vision2020] Ripping the Easter Bunny's Head Off : Was:Of, By &

lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
Mon Mar 17 11:04:37 PDT 2008 

Donovan
You are correct in that you can not prove there is no god. Science does not work that way. It is difficult if not imposable to prove a negative. Science is based on proving a positive based on repeatable results. This is why any religious belief should be separate from science. Both have value but should not be mixed together.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 01:30:04 -0700
To: Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Ripping the Easter Bunny's Head Off : Was:Of, By &

> Paul wrote:
>    
>   "You treat atheism as if it were a deadly disease. Atheists have nothing 
> in common amongst themselves other than a lack of a belief in a deity."
>    
>   Paul, I don't walk into a department store and and rip off the heads of Easter Bunnies because I don't believe he is true. I let others enjoy there religion, or believe in a false hood. I don't sue the department store because the Easter Bunny offends my superior sense of intellect with such a display of an infantile belief. Same goes for Santa. 
>    
>   Atheist are doing this all the time. Trying to remove God from even being mentioned or included in the daily lives of the 95% of people in this country that believe in him. A true non-believer in a God, would not be bothered by Santa, Easter Bunny, or Jesus Christ. They would respect others right to have their say, and even say the word "God" when saying the pledge or starting their morning at school or work. They simply have no respect or wish to grant believers in a God from expressing anything, unless in their house with the doors and windows shut out of their site and direct knowledge that it is being done. Simply put, they are aggressively ripping the head off the proverbial stuffed Jesus because they have no personal proof of his existence and feel offended by his presence. 
>    
>    
>   "I also find the idea that atheist's thinking is not "grounded in 
> anything stable or factual" quite puzzling. What is so stable and/or 
> factual about believing in invisible men that rule our lives down to 
> which shirt to wear in the morning?"
>    
>   It isn't logical to believe there is NO God. You cannot prove there is NO God. Therefore, you have reason only to believe you don't know if there is a God, OR you can believe that there is a God because God provided evidence to you that he is in existence. But to say there is NO God, has no basis in fact. 
>    
>   I think since it is possible there is a God, and it is possible that a God can exist, then it possible that God could hide or show his existence to people as he chooses. Therefore, the people would see God, would be rightfully fanatical about his existence.
>    
>   My biggest problem with Atheistic belief is that it defies logic in two ways.
>    
>   1) That you can prove No God exists
>    
>   2) It assumes all evidence of a God is not evidence
>    
>    
>   Best Regards,
>    
>   Donovan
>    
>   
> 
> 
> Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>   You treat atheism as if it were a deadly disease. Atheists have nothing 
> in common amongst themselves other than a lack of a belief in a deity. 
> That's it. They span all walks of life, except that you won't find many 
> of them in monasteries. To not believe in a deity is the default 
> position. Until someone or something compels you to believe in a god of 
> some sort, you're an atheist. It simply means "not a theist". They can 
> only be described together by the simple lack of an attribute.
> 
> I find the idea that following a religion is the only thing that keeps 
> religious people from doing all the bad things they would otherwise be 
> doing quite alarming. Keeping from being evil is not difficult, theist 
> or not. Be nice to people, because people like it when people are nice 
> to them. It's fun. Don't do to people what you wouldn't want done to 
> you, because if a line is not drawn there then you end up in anarchy and 
> nobody likes that (well, ok, maybe a few). Respect people. Leave other 
> people alone, for the most part. Live and let live. Pretty simple.
> 
> Why do we equate a powerful figure like a god with "good", anyway? You 
> are more powerful, sophisticated, and complex than a dog - but you also 
> have more capacity for evil than that dog does. It would follow that a 
> more powerful and sophisticated being than us would have more capacity 
> for evil than we do.
> 
> I also find the idea that atheist's thinking is not "grounded in 
> anything stable or factual" quite puzzling. What is so stable and/or 
> factual about believing in invisible men that rule our lives down to 
> which shirt to wear in the morning? A lot of atheists look at the world 
> around them, and can't fit the idea of a deity into the concrete world 
> they live in without actual proof. What could be more stable and 
> factual of an outlook than that?
> 
> Also, you may want to read up on modern-day Satanists. I know a couple 
> of them. There is a big difference between LaVey Satanism and the 
> mostly-non-existent Luciferian Satanism portrayed in bad B movies. It's 
> not my cup of tea, but it has some aspects to it that I can respect.
> 
> Try this out, should you ever join the military. Pretend that you don't 
> know what religion your commanding officer follows. It will save you a 
> world of pain.
> 
> Paul
> 
> Just in case you're wondering, I'm not an atheist. I'm an agnostic with 
> leanings toward a generalized theism, at best. I'm also not a Satanist, 
> Luciferian, LaVeyan, or otherwise.
> 
> Donovan Arnold wrote:
> > Roger,
> > 
> > I agree, that people should be equal before the law. I also agree that 
> > an Atheist can believe that people should be treated equal before the 
> > law. But there is a difference between someone believing that someone 
> > is equal before the law, and is actually equal.
> > 
> > It is different, in that if you really believe God made people equal, 
> > and gave them certain rights, because it is fact, not opinion, it is 
> > unchanging, and those rights are unalienable unless God says so, not men.
> > 
> > I also agree that men have in the past, and today, that claim that 
> > they believe in God, but are unable to fulfill that commitment to him 
> > in person. There are also Atheist that are good people, and do many 
> > wonderful human things. But, their thinking is not grounded in 
> > anything stable or factual. The same can also be said, however, for 
> > Satanists.
> > 
> > I think, personally, that the way people think, and believe, and act, 
> > they are disqualified from certain jobs. Jehovah Witnesses cannot be 
> > assigned to combat. Satanists cannot be Catholic Priests in the 
> > military. Grand Duke Dragons of the KKK cannot be leading African 
> > Americans, and blind people cannot be bus drivers, and Atheists, 
> > should not be leading men in deadly battle. That is the way I feel. 
> > People don't have to agree. But that is how I am. I would not want a 
> > commander in a military battle situation, because an Atheist. I would 
> > not like that. I would my commander to be someone that believes I have 
> > a soul, and am in fact, not just, equal to everyone else, not just a 
> > monkey with a gun under his control.
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > 
> > Donovan
> >
> > */lfalen /* wrote:
> >
> > Donavan
> > You are correct that in Nature people are not created equal. Where
> > they should be equal is before the law. I would disagree that
> > there is no such thing as right and wrong with out a belief in
> > God. I know a lot of Athiest and Agnostics that practice the basic
> > tenets of christianity better than most Christians. There are a
> > lot of atrocities committed by people who believe in god. I would
> > rather have a superior officer who was an Athiest than a religious
> > fanatic who wanted to bring down the rath of God on all those who
> > disagreed wth his particular creed.
> > Roger
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:40:05 -0700
> > To: lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com, Tom Hansen thansen at moscow.com,
> > Chasuk chasuk at gmail.com, godshatter at yahoo.com,
> > vision2020 at moscow.com, donaledwards at hotmail.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Of, By &
> >
> > > Roger,
> > >
> > > You write,
> > >
> > > "Saying that an atheist does not believe that all people are
> > created equal in the eyes of god is not to say that they don't
> > believe that all people are equal."
> > >
> > >
> > > Does nature create all people equal, Roger? Of course not.
> > People are only equal in the eyes of God. They are not equal in
> > any other way. There are great differences between people created
> > in nature that make some people better suited than others for this
> > world.
> > >
> > > Likewise, if you do not believe that the inherent rights listed
> > in the Constitution are created by God, then they were created
> > only by men, flawed men, and thus, the Constitution of the United
> > States is only a piece of paper.
> > >
> > > There is no such thing as right or wrong, if there is no God.
> > Because only men can decide what is right and wrong, and men can
> > change their minds. Slavery is not wrong, unless men think it is
> > wrong. Which means that slavery was right, until men thought it to
> > be wrong. Then and only then would it be wrong. It could not
> > always be right or wrong, because God does not exist to an Atheist.
> > >
> > > I think it is important that leaders of men know what is right
> > and wrong, and understand it is something fixed, something
> > factual, not something that can move based on what they think is
> > right and wrong at the moment.
> > >
> > > An Atheist, does not view other people any more than being a
> > more highly evolved form of monkeys, chimps, and orangutans.
> > People do not have souls, they are simply just more intelligent
> > creatures than the ones they keep in zoos. They believe we are
> > fools for believing in a God and it is as stupid as believing in
> > the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Donovan
> > >
> > > lfalen wrote:
> > > Donovan
> > > Saying that an atheist does not believe that all people are
> > created equal in the eyes of god is not to say that they don't
> > believe that all people are equal.
> > > Roger
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:03:32 -0700
> > > To: Tom Hansen thansen at moscow.com, Chasuk chasuk at gmail.com,
> > lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com, godshatter at yahoo.com,
> > vision2020 at moscow.com, donaledwards at hotmail.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Of, By &
> > >
> > > > TH,
> > > >
> > > > Are you asking me why I don't think someone who doesn't
> > believe all people are created equal in the eyes of God is not fit
> > to decide which men die and which men live in the battle field?
> > > >
> > > > Or are you asking me why I don't think an Atheist doesn't
> > believe that all men are created equal in the eyes of God?
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Donovan
> > > >
> > > > Tom Hansen wrote:
> > > > Au contraire, Chas.
> > > >
> > > > I simply do not believe that a person's religious preference
> > (or lack
> > > > thereof) should be applied as a measuring stick of that
> > person's ability
> > > > to lead.
> > > >
> > > > Question for you, D. Arnold: How do you confuse an atheist
> > with a person
> > > > that does not support the US Constitution or equality? I have
> > known
> > > > several admitted atheists in the Army ranking from private
> > first class (E-
> > > > 3) to master sergeant (E-8) to lieutenant colonel (O-5).
> > > >
> > > > Although I may not have agreed with some of the orders issued
> > to me by
> > > > atheist supervisors (these terms are not mutually exclusive), my
> > > > disagreement was not on the basis of their lack or religious
> > conviction.
> > > >
> > > > I anxiously await your response to my question.
> > > >
> > > > Tom "Protestant - or so it says on my dog tags" Hansen
> > > > Moscow, Idaho
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Tom,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am very concerned. Apparently, you believe that a
> > > > > Constitution-scoffer and inequality proponent would be a
> > suitable
> > > > > leader of our troops. I know this because our
> > ever-discerning Donovan
> > > > > Arnold somehow divined it from this thread. It has to be true!
> > > > >
> > > > > Dononvan wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > So you think someone that doesn't believe in the
> > Constitution or that
> > > > all
> > > > > > men are created equal should have command over the life
> > and death of
> > > > our
> > > > > > troops?
> > > > >
> > > > > Explain yourself, Tom!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Woefully,
> > > > >
> > > > > Chas
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "People who ridicule others while hiding behind anonymous
> > monikers in chat-
> > > > room forums are neither brave nor clever."
> > > >
> > > > - Latah County Sheriff Wayne Rausch (August 21,
> > > > 2007)
> > > >
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