[Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 19, Issue 205

Tue Jan 29 16:08:20 PST 2008

Well, I finally decided to crow in on this one.  First, although I see the point of asking businesses in the downtown and walking vicinity to keep their sidewalks clear I do not agree that there should be any personal negligence due to the property owner for not keeping it clear.  They should do it because they want their customers to feel safe and able to access their products.  This comes down to the very reason why we have ridiculous stickers on everything warning not to insert your curling iron into any orofice because it just might be hot and you could be burned, duh!  

This warning would seem very obvious (signs and stickers not required) to the average layperson that walking around in the winter may be hazardous to your heath and we all accept that risk when we live in an area that one could expect there to be snowfall.  If you are incapable of safely getting around then I would suggest some other safety measure be taken knowing that some have shovelled, others haven't and some have but more snow has or might fall in the mean time plus some who did shovel now have a nice little ice slick 1 inch under the fresh snow to navigate.  Don't blame the owner if you mistep and fall on your butt and I won't blame you if I do the same right behind you.

Next, I seem to recall making quite an income as an 8-14 yr old patrolling around Cd'A for driveways to shovel at the first sight of snow.  That income kept me in Christmas & arcade money for the entire season.  I have been amazed that not one kid since moving here has been seen nor heard of by me soliciting folks to shovel for.  Are they all locked indoors with their piddy's and toes'ys warming in front of the Xbox 360 or honing their Myspace pages?  Maybe these are the kids that are soooo bored that they are out commiting crimes that lead them to ordered community service they could have been getting paid for anyway?  

I'd say, let the kids do their part and maybe learn an actual lesson just like the inmates working at the Cd'A dump sorting recyclables.  My own 24hrs. community service served at the dog pound as a young kid seemed not so much as a punishment but a valuable lesson when completed and I would have jumped at a paying job doing what I was for them during my 4 Saturday's there.

Don> From: vision2020-request at moscow.com> Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 19, Issue 205> To: vision2020 at moscow.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:00:06 -0800> > Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to> vision2020 at moscow.com> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit> http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/vision2020> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to> vision2020-request at moscow.com> > You can reach the person managing the list at> vision2020-owner at moscow.com> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> than "Re: Contents of Vision2020 digest..."> > > Today's Topics:> > 1. Re: Contractors (Chasuk)> 2. Re: Contractors (pkraut at moscow.com)> 3. Re: Contractors (Matt Decker)> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Message: 1> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:47:05 -0800> From: Chasuk <chasuk at gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors> To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com> Message-ID:> <ef6f41de0801291447q44dd734bu40e0c8778cfeea9b at mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1> > Everyone talks about this as if it were such a simple issue. First,> there are many of us whom are not property owners, and probably never> will be. I belong to that demographic. Am I responsible for> shoveling snow outside my domicile, if it isn't specified in my lease> or rental agreement?> > Now let's pretend that I do own the property. Being a property owner> doesn't automatically mean I'm rich, right? Let's say I'm> able-bodied, and not infirm, but I can't be there to shovel within the> prescribed time for other, legitimate reasons. Maybe I'm attending a> wedding, or a funeral, or I work out of town for the majority of every> month. I'm gainfully employed, but I can't afford to pay someone to> reliably keep my sidewalk snow-free during my absence.> > I return and, under J's regime, I might have $500 in fines. I get> behind on my mortgage. I lose the house that has been a lifetime> goal.> > Why do I lose my house? Because one of my neighbors likes to traverse> my stretch of sidewalk with Fido in tow, and I have denied her that> pleasure. Never mind that she has a treadmill and a big backyard> where Fido actually prefers to romp. She is incensed that I have been> a scofflaw, and have interfered with the free exercise of her> perambulatory zeal.> > Later, homeless, I push my shopping cart past her house, grateful that> she has kept her sidewalk clear of snow, not knowing that it is this> harridan who was responsible for my homelessness, but also for the> amputation of three toes off my left foot due to frostbite.> > Yes, I painted a parodic, extremist picture, but I'm just trying to> show that it isn't that simple, folks.> > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 2> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:49:14 GMT> From: <pkraut at moscow.com>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors> To: vision2020 at mail-gw.fsr.net> Message-ID: <200801292249.m0TMnIje061482 at mail-gw.fsr.net>> > I am going to respond...not that I believe you really care but I do care > about our young people and what they are learning.> Yes, I like the idea of 'chain gang' labor. Too many of our young people > are left with the idea that the system will take care of them and they > are left with no work ethic. They didn't learn it at home and they are > not getting it from a system that is afraid of being sued by someone who > got their feelings hurt by having to actually work. They are sent into > the world seeking all the help with no idea how to just do it themselves. > The bible sayes that those who won't work don't eat and I think in our > efforts to give we forget that they need to know how to work. On the > other hand 'if you don't have the time, don't do the crime'!> > > > > > Pat, would you prefer that we "do things like that" again, somehow, if > it> m> eans causing harm to young people? > > You seem angry that care and concern are shown to vulnerable people, > and I> > know you're a Christian. How does that work in you? I'm not trying to> sla> m you. I'm trying to understand you.> > > > Take care,> > Keely> > > > > > > > > > > To: vision2020 at mail-gw.fsr.net> > > From: pkraut at moscow.com> > > Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:07:44 +0000> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors> > > > > > You cannot do that to the poor darlings on probation. You'll hurt > their > > > feelings and we are not allowed to do things like that anymore. > > > > > > > In Couer d' Alene, if the walks aren't cleared by 9:00 am, and kept > > > clear,> > > > the city will do it, and fine the property owner $100.00. If the > fine > > > isn't> > > > paid, it is attached as a lien on their property.> > > > > > > > Put the kids on probation to work. It is a tangible way to know > they > > > have> > > > completed the job. If the snow hasn't been removed, the job isn't > done.> > > > > > > > I respectfully disagree with you, Matt. The buck stops with the > owner > > > of the> > > > property. Why should I get injured due to the neglance of a > property > > > owner?> > > > Taking care of the sidewalks is part of the responsibility of being > a> > > > property owner.> > > > > > > > Also, Matt, I appreciate your gracious offer to shovel my walks > last > > > week...> > > > *smile* I don't have any sidewalks, other than a short three foot> walk> > > > to> > > > the gravel alley.> > > > > > > > Janesta> > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/28/08, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > I think going down this road can lead to a whole new can of worms.> If> > > > we> > > > > start doing contractor work for snow, then whats next?> > > > >> > > > > Maybe I can start billing the city for plowing my street.> > > > >> > > > > I believe if the people in town need help with the sidewalks, > just > > > ask.> > > > > Many out there will help. No need to fine people who in most > cases > > > can't do> > > > > it or are out of town.> > > > >> > > > > 2 cents> > > > > Matt> > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------> > > > > From: privatejf32 at hotmail.com> > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com> > > > > Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:39:08 -0800> > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] Contractors> > > > >> > > > > I know this won't solve the issue today, but has the City or > County > > > ever> > > > > thought about having contractors on retainer, so that if a > problem > > > area> > > > > sidewalk owner/responsible party refuses to or is slow to clean > it > > > off, the> > > > > contractor is brought in to do the cleaning off and then the> > > > > owner/responsible party is fined for the work done? If there > isn't > > > anything> > > > > like that now on the books, is there a possibility to consider it> in> > > > the> > > > > future, like for next year?> > > > >> > > > > Comments????> > > > >> > > > > J :]> > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------> > > > > Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn> > > more.<http://biggestloser.msn.com/>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------> > > > > Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn> > > more.<http://biggestloser.msn.com/>> > > > >> > > > >> =======================> =========================> =======> > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,> > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.> > > > > http://www.fsr.net> > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com> > > > >> =======================> =========================> =======> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------> > > This message was sent by First Step Internet.> > > http://www.fsr.com/> > > > > > > > >> ========================> =========================> ======> > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > > http://www.fsr.net > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com> > >> ========================> =========================> ======> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.> > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?> ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_0120> 08> > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------> This message was sent by First Step Internet.> http://www.fsr.com/> > > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 3> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:00:08 -0800> From: Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors> To: Saundra Lund <sslund_2007 at verizon.net>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>> Message-ID: <BAY102-W219E878E274CC12C8D19DAA3350 at phx.gbl>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"> > > Saundra,> > Fair enough. i understand your point and frustration. I know we can all do more to help each other and pay attention to others, such as car placement. I go through cars being in my snow plowing way, every morning. > > I guess I am one that would rather help out first then, if that doesnt solve it resort to 882-cops. This is why I am volunteering my time through the PCEI to help others that are unable. I too, just like J Ford helps the neighbors out when needed, just like I assume or hope all of us on the V do.> > I am not sure how PCEI filters it's clients to insure an "unable" person, but believe me if I ever find out I am volunteering time to an able bodied person, I'm outta there.> > Take care> Matt> > Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:15:18 -0800> From: sslund_2007 at verizon.net> To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi> Matt,> > > > Well,> I?m not sure I can agree with you that ?we all want clean clear> streets.? I absolutely agree with you, but have you driven> around town lately? As today?s City Press Release posted here on> the Viz highlights, there are more than a few people who haven?t> bothered to move their vehicles so plows can do the job. Perhaps some are> broken down, in which case they shouldn?t be parked on public streets. > Perhaps some owners are out of town, in which case their vehicles shouldn?t> be left parked on public streets, particularly in winter.> > > > Whatever> the various reasons folks have left their cars parked on public streets for> extended periods, it?s created a public safety issue for all of us> attempting to get around whether by walking, biking, or driving.> > > > The> same public safety issues arises when property owners fail to clear their sidewalks. > I?m with you in that I don?t? think CdA?s 9 AM deadline> is realistic -- what if you shovel at 7 AM before leaving for work and another> 2? fall after you?ve left for work?> > > > However,> I absolutely agree with Janesta and others that we need to do more to address> the many, many situations of those who aren?t clearing their sidewalks in> a timely manner.> > > > I> am proud to live in a community that has come up with a solution for the> elderly and differently-abled who aren?t able to clear their own> sidewalks, but what about all the property owners who just don?t seem to> give a darn, putting the safety of the rest of us at risk?> > > > Other> communities have come up with workable solutions ? why can?t we? > The current system really doesn?t work well, as those of us (including> school children) who are pedestrians in winter are well aware of.> > > > I> have a crappy back and therefore can?t help out with the City of Moscow?s> & PCEI?s wonderful Snow Patrol (http://www.pcei.org/VolunteerSnow.htm)> ? but kudos to you and others who are helping!> > > > However,> even if I had didn?t have a crappy back, I don?t think I?d be> too interested in spending too much time volunteering to clear sidewalks for> those able-but-unwilling to do the job themselves to help keep the rest of us> safe, you know? Nor am I very interested in having my tax dollars go to> clear the sidewalks of those able-but-unwilling to do the job themselves to> help keep the rest of us safe.> > > > Thus,> it seems to me an infinitely reasonable solution is to have a mechanism in> place to get the flippin? job done in a timely manner and then bill the> property owner.> > > > > > JMHO,> > > > Saundra Lund> > Moscow, ID> > > > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good> people to do nothing.> > ~ Edmund Burke> > > > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008> through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt,> or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written> permission of the author.*****> > > > > > > > > > From:> vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On> Behalf Of Matt Decker> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:41 PM> > To: J Ford; vision2020 at moscow.com> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors> > > > > > > > J,> > > > Try having a conversation w/o harping on someone you disagree with for once> will ya.> > > > To fine people for not being done by 9 am regardless, to me, is too harsh> of a rule. There are too many what ifs. How can you justify making a cop or> firefighter get paid help because he/she is out protecting YOU. Or how can you> have it in your heart to make the guy clearing the streets and sidewalks of the> snow, that the cops have to pay for, pay an extra $500 a month. > > > > Look we all want clean clear streets. In my opinion fining the bajesus out of> those who cannot do it is not the right solution. So let's quite the belittling> and come to a solution, if this current one is not working for you.> > > > Maybe juveniles on probation is a good start.> > > > Or you can donate your time to help clean some these sidewalks. Talk to Kit> Craine for info. She got me started on it.> > > > Matt> > > > > > > > From: privatejf32 at hotmail.com> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com> > Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:01:38 -0800> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors> > > > Ok, so there is State-wide example precedent for this type of thing. I> like the sound of your example, Janesta. Wonder if ANYone in the City is> willing to comment or even DO something positive to resolve the issue......> > > > Matt - whatever. > > > > When you own property, being out of town or being at work still means its up to> you, the property owner responsible party, to make sure things get done. > I suppose if someone working on your property slips and breaks an arm while> you're gone due to your not making a needed repair, your "not responsible> as I was at work or out of town" defense would work? Nope. > > > > There are a lot of "out-of-town" owners with property in Moscow -> they hire property managers who are supposed to - ahem - "manage" the> property and make sure things get done. > > > > J :]> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:56:57 -0800> > From: janesta at gmail.com> > To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com> > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com; privatejf32 at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors> > > > In> Couer d' Alene, if the walks aren't cleared by 9:00 am, and kept clear, the> city will do it, and fine the property owner $100.00. If the fine isn't paid,> it is attached as a lien on their property.> > > > > > > > > > > > Put> the kids on probation to work. It is a tangible way to know they have completed> the job. If the snow hasn't been removed, the job isn't done.> > > > > > > > > > > > I> respectfully disagree with you, Matt. The buck stops with the owner of the> property. Why should I get injured due to the neglance of a property owner?> Taking care of the sidewalks is part of the responsibility of being a property> owner.> > > > > > > > > > > > Also,> Matt, I appreciate your gracious offer to shovel my walks last week...> *smile* I don't have any sidewalks, other than a short three foot walk to the> gravel alley.> > > > > > > > > > > > Janesta> > > > > > > > > > On 1/28/08, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > I think going down this road can lead to a> whole new can of worms. If we start doing contractor work for snow, then whats> next? > > > > Maybe I can start billing the city for plowing my street. > > > > I believe if the people in town need help with the sidewalks, just ask. Many> out there will help. No need to fine people who in most cases can't do it or> are out of town.> > > > 2 cents> > Matt> > > > > > > > From: privatejf32 at hotmail.com> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com> > Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:39:08 -0800> > Subject: [Vision2020] Contractors > > > > > > > > I know this won't solve the issue today, but has the City or> County ever thought about having contractors on retainer, so that if a problem> area sidewalk owner/responsible party refuses to or is slow to clean it off,> the contractor is brought in to do the cleaning off and then the> owner/responsible party is fined for the work done? If there isn't> anything like that now on the books, is there a possibility to consider it in> the future, like for next year?> > > > Comments????> > > > J :]> > > > > > > > Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn more.> > > > > > > > =======================================================> > List services made available by First Step Internet,> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.> > http://www.fsr.net> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com> > =======================================================> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Need> to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your> "fix". Check it out. > > > > > > > > > > Need> to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your> "fix". Check it out.> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________> Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix".> http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx> -------------- next part --------------> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...> URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20080129/043828dd/attachment.html > > ------------------------------> > =======================================================> List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com> =======================================================> > End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 19, Issue 205> *******************************************
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