[Vision2020] The Derogatory Athiests

[Chasuk]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:09 PM, Donovan Arnold
<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> The primary problem with many Atheists is they don't understand that faith
> in God is based on personal experience, and beliefs, as well and evidence
> presented to them by God himself. It is not based on arguments made based on
> speculation and conjecture.

I don't claim atheism, though it often claims me, as most people
aren't interested in the nuances.  I am non-theist, philosophically
more aligned with the agnostics than with others.   But even that
label is inadequate, as so many Christians conflate atheism and
agnosticism with non-theism as to make the distinctions irrelevant.

Anyway, the problem with many Christians is that they make the
erroneous assumption that you are making here.  I have talked with
God.  We had a deeply personal relationship.  I'm not mocking here;
I'm describing my Christian experience as I might have when I was
still a Christian.  I was what is popularly called "Born Again," and
my faith was very important to me.  God revealed himself to me in a
dramatic way that I will not go into here, and I would probably
decline to describe under any circumstances.  But it was real to me,
and I believed fervently.  I was filled with the Holy Ghost; I spoke
in tongues, I ministered, I proselytized, I praised His name in all of
my actions both public and private.  I read the Bible daily, I
attended church three times weekly, I listened to religious music
exclusively.  Does anybody remember Andrae Crouch and the Disciples?
I used to love them.  I used to adore Jimmy Swaggart before he fell
from grace.  Have any Christians here read Tortured for His Faith?
The Cross and the Switchblade?  Run, Baby, Run?  The Hiding Place?
Hinds Feet on High Places?  Any of the numerous books by Salem Kirban?

But I lost my faith.  It happens more often than you might think, and
certainly more than most Christians seem to understand.
Non-theists/atheists/agnostics are often reluctant to speak of their
former faith, because we are inevitably confronted with "Well, you
must have never had a witness in the first place, if you could fall
away.  You were never a REAL Christian."  Needless to say, this
condescension grows tiresome.

What I do know is that faith can't be backed up by "arguments made
based on speculation and conjecture."  One shouldn't even try.  "Now
faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not
seen."  Hebrews 11:1.  Accepting Jesus in your heart, accepting the
still small voice of God -- those things require a leap of faith, not
arguments.

> I don't frankly, appreciate CHAS, in particular, poking fun of my faith. And
> if he doesn't believe in God, that is his problem. But if he is going to be
> insulting and disrespectful, to me and others that have a different personal
> belief and relationship with God, then I must honestly tell them go bug off
> and go be godless without involving me in his insulting and derogatory
> anti-religious behavior.

I have been unkind to you.  For the unkindness, I apologize.  I can't
apologize for having the sentiments which motivated the unkindness.  I
think I explained reasonably the reason for my temper in a previous
post.

I live in a secular world.  Unless we are clergy or laity, most of us
do.  Because I am a non-theist, I live in a super-secular world.  I
seldom go to church, and then it is only to one of those nominally
Christian denominations with a friend, or with the UUs.  A minority of
my friends or acquaintances are theists.  Because I encounter so few
believers, I am startled when I hear a sincere expression of faith.
Your faith startles me.  First, because the only person who routinely
shares/demonstrates her faith on Vision2020 is Keely.  Second,
because, frankly, I've watched you and Tom Hansen sling mud at each
other for years in tones and words that I don't think would make Jesus
happy.  When you occasionally remind us that you are a Christian, it
takes a moment to adjust.

Chas