[Vision2020] Shoes thrown at President Bush

Wed Dec 17 20:21:30 PST 2008

Paul,

I think promoting freedom and democracy in the world is a noble cause. Our methods maybe flawed, and in many cases corrupted. But I am in favor of it in theory. 

But equally flawed, are those that condemn the US for not freeing people in some other parts of the world. The US cannot risk World stability to start wars in regions of the world where we are most unwelcome in order to create nations for every group of people that claims they deserve to be seperate political entities. 

In my opinion, the United States has the right to invade another nation for three reasons;

1) To stop genocide
2) To stop a brutal dictator
3) To protect our boarders and citizens from clear and present harm. 

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Wed, 12/17/08, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Shoes thrown at President Bush
> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 7:21 AM
> Do we have a mandate as a country to ensure that every
> nation has the right to democratically elect it's
> leaders?  Or just that ones that made death threats against
> the current President's daddy and that happens to have a
> lot of oil reserves?
> 
> I agree it's a worthy goal.  But we're being
> hypocritical if we ignore other nations and concentrate on
> just one of them.
> 
> Paul
> 
> Donovan Arnold wrote:
> > Sunil,
> > 
> > The United States, as any nation's people, should
> have the unalienable right to democratically elect its
> leaders and representatives without them being assaulted or
> harassed by the people of another country. What is the point
> of a democracy if the elected leaders are just harassed,
> assaulted, or killed while performing their duties?
> > 
> > You always present yourself to me as someone that
> ignores what is morally and ethically important for the sake
> of whatever is expedient for your cause at the time. 
> > You hate Bush, and as far as I can tell, and most of
> his policies, so you are shoving side a very basic and
> important right of people for the justification of attacking
> a man you dislike. No doubt your tune would change if it
> were a more serious assault against a leader you liked. 
> > Best Regards,
> > 
> > Donovan
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Sunil Ramalingam
> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >   
> >> From: Sunil Ramalingam
> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Shoes thrown at
> President Bush
> >> To: "vision 2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 5:34 PM
> >> Donovan,
> >> 
> >> I don't give a rat's ass about this
> guy's
> >> citizenship; now that's a red herring.  I can
> see that
> >> he wasn't attacked by a foreigner, since it
> looks like
> >> the guy was an Iraqi in his own country.
> >> 
> >> I am perturbed that he was able to get the second
> shoe off,
> >> and I don't recommend people throw shoes at
> presidents,
> >> or most other people.  I also don't think they
> should be
> >> killed for doing it.
> >> 
> >> What I am least concerned about, and what I find
> >> remarkable, is the notion that our sovereignty was
> >> threatened.  When we start showing respect for the
> >> sovereignty of other states, I may come to see our
> own
> >> sovereignty has a delicate flower in need of
> protection. You can keep repeating your concern, and
> I'll still find
> >> it either meaningless or ludicrous. Important
> issue my foot.
> >>  That guy wasn't making a statement about
> sovereignty,
> >> he was illustrating his view of Bush.
> >> 
> >> Worrying that our sovereignty was somehow
> threatened
> >> strikes me like worrying about Rush Limbaugh's
> ego
> >> should he hear a criticism of his views.
> >> 
> >> As far as tempting us, apparently they did that by
> having
> >> oil under their ground.  
> >> Sunil
> >> 
> >> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:01:52 -0800
> >> From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com; tiedye at turbonet.com
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Shoes thrown at
> President Bush
> >> 
> >> Dave and Sunil,
> >>  What is clear is that you are not bothered by an
> attempt to
> >> assault the President of the United States by
> someone that
> >> is not a US Citizen.
> >>  It doesn't matter if the US President is
> assaulted by a
> >> foreigner on his soil or ours. It is still an
> attack on US
> >> Sovereignty. That is the point. If you missed
> that, I will
> >> repeat it; It doesn't matter if the US
> President is
> >> assaulted by a foreigner on his soil or ours. Is
> is still an
> >> attack on US Sovereignty.
> >>  I think focusing on the fact that the US base was
> in Iraq,
> >> is a big smelly red herring intentionally thrown
> into to the
> >> argument to avert away from the important issue of
> US
> >> security and sovereignty, which is what is being
> challenged.
> >> 
> >>  And yes, Sunil, Middle Eastern nations do need to
> be
> >> careful about how they behave because the US has
> no qualms
> >> about blowing people up or invading nations. It is
> idiotic
> >> for a people to tempt and taunt those with the
> biggest
> >> weapons that are also willing to use them.   Best
> Regards,
> >>  Donovan
> >> 
> >> --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Dave
> <tiedye at turbonet.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >> From: Dave <tiedye at turbonet.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Shoes thrown at
> President Bush
> >> To: "vision2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 8:14 AM
> >> 
> >> Donovan Arnold wrote:
> >>     
> >>> I meant, Sunil, that the guy who attacked the
> US
> >>>       
> >> President was not a US
> >> Citizen. I guess you can play semantics if you
> want, but I
> >> think my meaning was
> >> clear.     
> >>>         
> >> Quite clear: you think that the USA owns the
> world.
> >> 
> >> Dave
> >> 
> >> 
> >> -- Windows, OSX, or Linux is the same choice as:
> >> McDonalds, Burger King, or a (real) Co-Op.
> >> 
> >>
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