[Vision2020] A Caution
g. crabtree
jampot at roadrunner.com
Wed Oct 10 13:56:32 PDT 2007
The Princess owned up to his alter ego in a post to this forum. Mr. Schwaller says he is actually who he claims to be. If your question was how do I excuse people who post with a fictitious moniker whose posts don't irritate me quite as much as some others do the answer is I don't. I would strongly prefer that everyone on this list man up and use their real name no matter what side of any given issue they stand on and this most definitely includes you, the unofficial queen of the visions cowardly participants. Is that straight forward enough for you?
If I'm placing something "erroneously on the shoulders of others," please explain how. Please point out to me the differences between the posts of giselle, juanita, Christavengers, the scimitar, the publisher, bob herodotus, dougs hero, canc, and all the others of their unpleasant ilk. Do you really believe that the hate filled screeds offered up by these obsesive nut balls is the equal of the occasional post offered up by Mr. Witmer or Mr. Schwaller? Are you really that far around the bend? An answer to these questions would interest me greatly. All except the last, that is. It was rhetorical. (or perhaps a forgone conclusion)
g
----- Original Message -----
From: J Ford
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Caution
Okay, so now that you've got that off your chest, care to answer my question as stated?
The "Princess", Schwaller" and others of that church are doing "the constant change ups to spew the same old, tired message" that you place erroneously on the shoulders of others. Another "kirker" or "kirker sympathizer" tactic, I know - distract while you run. But do give it a try, won't you?
Answer the question.
J :]
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From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: privatejf32 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:17:24 -0700
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Caution
My dearest Ms. "Ford"
Its not so much the "factious names" as the constant change ups to spew the same old, tired message as though there was a constant new crop of malcontents, as well as the blatant opportunism in the timing to take advantage of a fledgling congregations start up.
Perhaps you could enlighten me on excusing the poster who hasn't the courage to use their own name what with you being an expert on the subject and all?
g
----- Original Message -----
From: J Ford
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Caution
And you'd excuse the "sportzboysfromthehood", Princess T, G Schwalling, etc. for posting using factious names - HOW?!
J :]
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From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: christs.avengers.bowness.alta at gmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 17:58:47 -0700
CC: askreallife at reallifeministries.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Caution
Christ requires earthly avengers? And from Canada no less. Kind of makes me wonder and NOT in the way that "Giselle" and the "avengers" would probably prefer. I'd love to hear from a real representative of "the fastest growing church in America" and have them explain the effectiveness of blowing into town and having anonymous shills attempt to tear down their competitors ministries. Is that how you've managed to grow at such a prodigious rate? Or, as is far more likely to be the case, do we have some of the same old, same old trying yet again to duplicitously further their little agenda. I'm guessing the latter. Do you guys really think that coming up with endless pseudonyms and fictitious organizations is fooling anyone? sadly, I guess you must.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Christ's Avengers
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Cc: askreallife at reallifeministries.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] A Caution
If Giselle McCourt and the brothers and sisters at Real Life Ministries are really serious about rooting out ungodly pastors, priests, ministers, etc, they need to start with the specious, unordained pastor of the horribly misnamed Christ Church of Moscow, Idaho, to wit, Douglas Wilson.
Here are some links as starters that will give them some insight into this driven, dishonest, power-hungry, self-loving, conniver who dares to mock Jesus Christ by pretending to be His Messenger.
A thoroughly documented site by true Christians:
http://dougsplotch.com/
Another thoroughly documented site, although by a non-believer, which never-the-less offers a wealth of information:
http://www.tomandrodna.com/notonthepalouse/
Of special interest on this site showing the ugly fruits of a ministry hideously departed from the True Way of Jesus Christ:
http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR_2005_02027/
http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR%5F2005%5F0250Wight/
An extremely revealing site from a Christ Church Apostate:
http://poohsthink.com/
Another well-documented website:
http://federal-vision.blogspot.com/
Other websites of interest:
http://cultists.blogspot.com/
http://cleaning-house.org/
http://ministrywatchman.com/?p=47
http://www.joshualetter.org/slavery/
Not to be ignored:
The archives of Vision 2020 where insightful comment can be found:
http://vision2020.moscow.com/passpage.asp?ArchiveType=new
http://vision2020.moscow.com/passpage.asp?ArchiveType=old
The letters of Keely Emerine-Mix, Rose Huskey, Saundra Lund, J Ford, Michael Metzler, and other referents found in those letters clearly expose the wayward Wilson.
Christ's Avengers
Bowness, Alberta, Canada
Some of our Watchwords from Jesus Christ, Matt 7:15 – 20:
15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Amen!
Giselle's thoughts on this are much appreciated, and I sincerely hope they touch the hearts of those who have been shattered by "pastors" who would usurp the autonomy of the believer in her/his relationship with Jesus Christ. The Gospel is a message of reconciliation, liberation, grace, forgiveness, unbridled love and humility. It is not a means by which to insinuate oneself into the lives and consciences of others. And while community and fellowship are vital for the spiritual health of the believer, the intimate relationship of a man or woman to his or her Savior is the province of their Spirit-informed conscience, not a tool to further the controlling, aggressive and manipulative agenda of anyone who sees himself as the top rung of a hierarchy the Gospel intends to dismantle.
If I were confronted with the message and behavior of the leadership at Christ Church and didn't know Jesus Christ, I would run away as fast as I could. It's not a picture of a savior I'd want to have anything to do with. But I do know Jesus, and so I choose to stand toe-to-toe in opposition to anyone who would pervert the Gospel and misrepresent the One to whom I owe my very heart and soul. I'm grateful for Giselle's voice and pray it will reach those who've been hurt by the tsunami of bigotry and pride that is Kirk leadership.
keely
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 09:46:42 -0700
From: giselle.wilson.mccourt at gmail.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] A Caution
Dear Friends in Christ and Neighbors of Goodwill,
This short message is addressed to those of you from other area churches who attended the Launch Service of Real Life Ministries last Sunday and to those that might like to attend further services in order to see if Real Ministries could become the church of your choice.
There are certain pastors in this area who look upon their congregations as their personal property. They covetously regard members of their congregations as chattel to be used as they decree rather than as souls to be lovingly guided into the arms of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and into the way of righteousness, goodwill, and eternal salvation.
These unholy pastors often resort to dire and to unchristian measures to either persuade or to force members to remain shackled in the ungodly, grasping jaws of their spurious ministries. Hence, I repeat the following from my first message (also appended). (If you know any trapped and struggling Christians caught in such circumstances, please, please help them by forwarding this message.
The choice you make of the Christian church to attend is a matter between you and God, only. You do not need to ask or receive anyone's permission to change Christian churches, nor do you owe anyone notice or an explanation if you do. It is a decision between you and God alone. If your pastor or members of your church attempt to coerce or to wheedle you in any way to remain in the grasp of their church – persistent pressure, guilt, promises, visits, telephone calls, threats, spying, extortive tactics, feigned sweetness, feigned concern for your soul, etc, – you are not in a church which preaches the True Teachings of The Lord Jesus Christ and who sincerely loves The Lord Jesus Christ. If any of the above unchristian tactics has been applied or is applied to you please let the good folks at Real Life Ministries know: askreallife at reallifeministries.com
Reminder: Great news! The fastest growing church in America, Real Life Ministries, is now in Latah County.
http://www.reallifeministries.com/index.php
http://moscowreallife.com/home.html
Come, join, and start to be united with the community and God through Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Real Life Services
Sunday, October, 7th 9:00 and 11:00 AM, 3148 Tomer Rd.
Directions:
From Moscow: Travel east on Highway 8. Turn right onto Carmichael Road. Turn left onto Tomer Road. Continue until you reach Palouse Hills Christian School.
From Troy: Travel west on Highway 8. Turn left onto Lenville Road. Turn right onto Tomer Road . Continue until you reach Palouse Hills Christian School.
Your neighbor and friend in Our Lord Jesus Christ,
Giselle McCourt
This message has neither been officially approved nor sent by the Boards of Directors of Real Life Ministries, Inc., Real Life Ministries, Ltd., Real Life Ministries, Cie. nor any member thereof.
************************************************************
Previous Message
Dear Neighbors and Friends in Our Lord Jesus Christ,
Please pass this message on to anyone it might benefit.
Regardless of the church you now attend, for the sake of your own eternal salvation in Our Lord Jesus Christ, please take some time to consider very carefully in your heart of hearts the following questions.
Does your pastor unite the community or does your pastor divide it?
Does your pastor respect everyone equally or does your pastor have favorites amongst your congregation?
Does your pastor disdain or ignore the worth of any or many of God's children?
Does your pastor display way too much self-love?
Is your pastor much too fond of rich foods, fine wines, and other voluptuary pleasures?
Is your pastor ever vindictive, spiteful, punitive, or dishonest especially towards those with whom your pastor disagrees or those who have chosen in God's name to leave the clutches of his ministry?
Would you trust your pastor with your purse? With your real estate agent? With your wife?
Does your pastor hold wacko ideas like the antebellum slaves were a happy lot and lived in wonderful harmony with their masters?
At your pastor's rigid insistence is your church music full of dark, chilling, mournful words and music rather than raising a "Joyful noise unto the Lord" as commanded by the bible? Psalms 100
Has your pastor engineered the purchase land for a new church that is not only too small for a church and cemetery, but even too small for a moderately sized church? Did your pastor pay about twice the market value for the land? Is that land now known as "------'s Folly?"
Does your pastor demand, coerce, or wheedle so much tithe that it hurts your ability to give what they need and they deserve to your family and community? Have you been asked to sacrifice heavily and to tithe in God's name so that your pastor can pursue his ambitious, mostly personal goals?
Does your pastor's money management problems and love of his pet projects that serve him more than God often lead to calls for further tithing and sacrifices? Does your pastor try to con and to manipulate you by insinuating that the amount of your tithe is directly proportional to your love of Our Lord Jesus Christ, champion of the poor? Matthew 19:16 - 30, Matthew 25:31 - 46
Does your pastor pack the various parts of his ministry's payroll with overpaid relatives and kowtowing friends and their relatives, thus putting even more stress on church finances and leading to further demands for tithes?
Does your pastor look at new members more as a source of tithes and straw and mud with which to build his empire, rather than as souls to guide into the loving arms of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
Does your church have a hidden missing funds problem? If so, is it possible that some of those funds have disappeared into off-shore accounts of which your pastor is the sole signatory?
Does your pastor flout the civil law? Romans 13:1 – 7
Does your pastor ever direct members of your church to perform illegal or sinful activities or to ignore illegal or sinful activities done by church members?
Does your pastor ever practice flagrant dishonesty in the name of The Lord or in claiming to do the work of The Lord? Is this something Jesus would do?
Are your pastor's theological views so far out that were recently rejected by over 96% of a very large body of his fellow Reformed Disciples that carefully examined them?
When vehemently defending his version of The Word of God as the only "correct one," does your pastor sometimes appear to be mentally disturbed?
Is your pastor more interested in enriching himself and his family then your pastor is in exhibiting himself as shining, living example of the Life and Teachings of Jesus Christ, especially doing this by showing agape towards all, showing humility, showing disdain for wealth and its trappings, and showing great concern and charity for all the poor and unfortunate? Matthew 19:16 - 30
Does your pastor have a double standard when it comes to adultery? When it comes to rape and adultery in church schools?
Has your pastor encouraged divorces when it would benefit him in a very personal way, or encouraged divorces with unchristian vindictiveness to inflict great pain and sorrow upon certain critics of his actions and claimed beliefs?
Does your pastor ever appear to place himself on an equal footing or above God?
Does your pastor place himself as a barrier between you and God? Does your pastor blasphemously style himself/herself as a necessary conduit between you and God?
Does your pastor blame others for his shortcomings?
After having made a serious mistake in judgment does your pastor own up to it, or does your pastor sometimes claim he/she has a secret plan and the congregation must "trust" him/her that eventually all will be right?
Does your pastor keep important church information secret from not only the congregation, but from some of the elders and deacons too?
Does your pastor unchristianly operate your church like a secret society in the community rather than like the open arms of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
Has your pastor imported child molesters into the community? If so, is it possible that your pastor knew something of their particular sinful proclivities beforehand, but imported them anyway?
Has your pastor written a letter supporting leniency for a convicted child molester, one who did dreadful, despicable things to many different children, who attended one of the ministry's schools, and one who defiled the children of the church family with whom he boarded? If so, was that letter hypocritically contrary to your pastor's past preaching, and most important, blasphemously contrary to the requirements of The Word of God?
Does your business or relationships with your neighbors suffer because your pastor has – with his outré views, unchristian actions, and harsh, in your face, unchristian polemics – caused many of the community to shun your business or avoid yourself and your family?
Does your pastor use divisive tactics and polemics to persuade you from listening to the words of your neighbors and dividing you from them?
Does the majority of your community regard your pastor as a crook, clown, or perhaps even an anti-Christ?
Does your pastor ever bring to mind the following passage from Matthew 7:15 - 20?
15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
Does your pastor make up insulting, abusive names for those that question his bizarre views and actions? Does your pastor belittle his critics and assassinate their characters or take other vindictive, punitive measures rather than act like Our Loving Lord Jesus would? Matthew 5:38 - 48
Does your pastor attempt to coerce and to wheedle your continuing church membership rather than trust in your faith in God and God-given conscience to guide you to make the right choice of church to attend?***
Does any answer to any of the above questions about your pastor trouble you? Does any answer trouble you especially considered in the light of the Teachings of The Lord Jesus Christ and your God-given conscience? If so, then perhaps it is time for the sake of your immortal soul to consider moving to a true church of Our Lord Jesus Christ in God, and away from a church that will only lead you away from the path of righteousness, goodwill, and eternal salvation.
Great news! The fastest growing church in America, Real Life Ministries, is coming to Latah County.
http://www.reallifeministries.com/index.php
http://moscowreallife.com/home.html
Come, join, and start to be united with the community and God through Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Real Life Launch Services
Sunday, October, 7th 9:00 and 11:00 AM, 3148 Tomer Rd.
Directions:
From Moscow: Travel east on Highway 8. Turn right onto Carmichael Road. Turn left onto Tomer Road. Continue until you reach Palouse Hills Christian School.
From Troy: Travel west on Highway 8. Turn left onto Lenville Road. Turn right onto Tomer Road . Continue until you reach Palouse Hills Christian School.
I hope to see you there.
Your neighbor and friend in Our Lord Jesus Christ,
Giselle McCourt
***The choice you make of the Christian church to attend is a matter between you and God, only. You do not need to ask or receive anyone's permission to change Christian churches, nor do you owe anyone notice or an explanation if you do. It is a decision between you and God alone. If your pastor or members of your church attempt to coerce or to wheedle you in any way to remain in the grasp of their church – persistent pressure, guilt, promises, visits, telephone calls, threats, spying, extortive tactics, feigned sweetness, feigned concern for your soul, etc, – you are not in a church which preaches the True Teachings of The Lord Jesus Christ and who sincerely loves The Lord Jesus Christ. If any of the above unchristian tactics has been applied or is applied to you please let the good folks at Real Life Ministries know: askreallife at reallifeministries.com
This message has neither been officially approved nor sent by the Boards of Directors of Real Life Ministries, Inc., Real Life Ministries, Ltd., Real Life Ministries, Cie. nor any member thereof.
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