[Vision2020] FW: Words Bring Pause
Art Deco
deco at moscow.com
Mon Mar 12 18:37:22 PDT 2007
Maybe there should be signs telling U.S citizens to be polite to other U.S. citizens and non-citizens in ordinary transactions.
W.
----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Kraut
To: vision2020
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] FW: Words Bring Pause
i have a question; We are constantly bombarded with information so we do not insult those moving here whether they are illegal or not. Do they ever get classes or information about the problems they are causing us?? Do they realize how much they insult us? I do not think I have seen a sign telling them to be polite, kind or helpful to citizens of the US.
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Deco
To: Vision 2020
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] FW: Words Bring Pause
Perhaps one or two comments might be helpful to some in this debate.
1. Besides the time commitment, there are several difficulties in learning to speak or write a new language. Learning to write a new language is difficult if one can only write marginally in their own language. Despite major progress in teaching ESL, it is not easy to teach or to learn due to a wide variety of learning and teaching styles and rates that need to be matched for optimal learning. Hence, besides motivation and time, other factors can be a significant deterrent. There are some fine computer based language learning tools available, but many of those wishing to learn a language do not have either the hardware or software readily at hand or can afford it.
That is not to say a person choosing to work or to reside for a significant length of time in another country should not make an effort to learn the language of that country (and also come to understand other cultural significances). But it is not like waving a magic wand. To take advantage of the needed resources to learn a new language, the resources need to be available at a time when they can be used.
2. Having been a systems engineer for a long time and part of whose mantra is to make things as easy and foolproof as possible, I think that making multilingual labels and signs helps both the client and the provider in any situation to meet both of their goals easier. To fail to do so argues a lack of basic human concern and a fundamental short-sightedness of basic organizational goals. Perhaps one deciding factor is the expense in any particular case. In many cases the expense would be negligible compared to the gain achieved.
Having lived in or traveled to many places that were multilingual, I found that the businessperson who accommodates his customers by using multiple languages to communicate will be more successful in the long run. Doing this builds good will immediately and in the long run. Not doing it builds bad will that is likely to last long after those not treated considerately have long learned the language. They will go elsewhere with their business ever after.
The same can be said of government agencies whose job is to serve the public. That is not to say that every single form, procedure manual, or employee needs to be bilingual or trilingual, etc. But much time is saved and service rendered by making the more common signs and forms bilingual where appropriate, and in some services having some bilingual service persons saves a lot of hassle for all, e.g. law enforcement and medical/health service facilities.
I remember when I was in a saturation course with many others, all college graduates, attempting to gain a basic speaking and writing ability in another language. It was a tough go for all of us despite the time allotted for us to learn and the selection process in choosing who was to be given this training.
If both parents are working long hours and needing besides to devote time to basic household and parenting tasks, there is a fatigue factor as well as a time factor associated with learning a new language. It is true what you would naturally expect: fatigue slows and discombobulates the learning process.
A little patience, understanding, help, and humanity might be in order.
W.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kai Eiselein, editor
To: Vision 2020
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 2:41 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] FW: Words Bring Pause
Ok, so one can expect to see things labeled in English and Japanese in Hawaii, mainly because of businesses catering to Japanese tourists. As a matter of fact, I was the only American in the group I went scuba diving with, everyone else was Japanese, with the exception of one divemaster, and even he spoke Japanese fluently.
Frankly, I didn't notice a language smorgasbord on Oahu, just a lot of Japanese signage and Japanese languge TV shows. Most of the non-Japanese tourists I ran into were either Aussies and Kiwis, who speak a strange dialect of English, LOL..
One would also expect to see signs and such in English and Spanish along the US/Mexico border. I will be in Nogales, AZ next month, and I fully expect I'll need to speak English, Spanish and Spanglish while there. No problem, in a matter of hours of arriving, it'll be like I never left.
But should I have to speak Spanish in, say, Idaho? No I shouldn't, yet I needed to a couple of weeks ago while in the Boise area, because most of the hotel staff did not speak Engish at all. In order to communicate my needs, I had to speak Spanish. Was it the end of the world? No. Was it annoying? Yes, why should I have to switch to a foreign language in order to communicate in my own country? I shouldn't have to.
I think English should be the official language of the US.
If businesses want to deal in more than one language to attract customers, that is their choice. I don't feel that Joe Taxpayer should have to pay for government documents to be printed in every language on the planet.
I think speaking more than one language is great, the more the better, but in my home country I should only NEED to speak one.
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]On Behalf Of Sue Hovey
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 1:18 PM
To: Donovan Arnold; keely emerinemix; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Words Bring Pause
OK, I guess we can agree to disagree on the English language mandate.
But would you humor me on this one? You said:
If you haven't bought anything where the directions were primarily Spanish it is because you haven't bought anything in a community that is in the Southwestern United States. You probably buy your stuff in Moscow or Spokane that is 98% White not 40% White.
I believe in buying locally so I don't tend to run off to Arizona or California to buy products. If they are sold there and not shipped out, why does that create a problem for you? And I really would like an example. It's not that I'm unwilling to believe you, I just want to know what one might be.
Actually for the past three months I have done all my buying in Hawaii--lucky me. There are many things I love about this wonderful state, and among them is the benefit of its linguistic diversity. I don't buy many products here that need directions, but it's great fun to shop for groceries where one runs into labels printed in many languages--of course one can shop in World Market in Spokane and do the same thing.
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: Donovan Arnold
To: Sue Hovey ; keely emerinemix ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 5:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Words Bring Pause
Sue,
You wrote:
"Donovan, Your contention that those who don't speak English are rude and make everyone cater to them is a pretty narrow view of the conditions of many non-English speakers."
This is a false representation of what I said. I said I have the deepest respect for those that try to learn the language and spite for those that don't.
Unless you are mentally incapable, which I doubt most non-English speaking people in this country are, you should be attempting to learn the language. Further businesses and other agencies that print everything in two or 20 languages are only allowing them to not learn.
Many millions of people come into this country and refuse to learn the language, they stay in cities like LA, Phoenix, and Las Vegas where everything is in their language. They get jobs, go shopping, and drive on the roads, not knowing more than three words in English and don't care to learn it. I am not talking about people 65 who grew up in an other country until last week, I am talking about people 18-50 that have lived the better half of their life in this country, and people that refuse to teach English to their children.
Anyone that really wants to learn English can learn English. I also believe that it is a serious danger to the lives of people in this country when people cannot communicate because of a language barrier, it happens everyday, in emergency situations, or situations that quickly because emergency situations because of a lack of communication.
Yes Sue, all the cultures that have come to the US have learned to speak English. There are no major cities in the United States where the majority speaks German, the Germans learned English, as did the French, the Italians, the Greeks, the Spanish, the Russians, the Swedish, Japanese, all did, even the Slaves that were forbidden by law from reading learned to speak English.
We have to have one language as a matter of necessity, you have road signs, government literature, communications over the radio, TV and Internet, the language of government meetings, the words on printed money etc, can be only adequately done in one language. No one person chose the English language we all agreed to it many years ago because it gave us the greatest opportunity in the world.
If you haven't bought anything where the directions were primarily Spanish it is because you haven't bought anything in a community that is in the Southwestern United States. You probably buy your stuff in Moscow or Spokane that is 98% White not 40% White.
Not having everyone speak one language is not only an inconvenience, it is also a danger to our society.
Further, I don't even think you should be able to get a driver's license without being able to speak English.
Best,
Donovan
Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com> wrote:
Donovan, Your contention that those who don't speak English are rude and make everyone cater to them is a pretty narrow view of the conditions of many non-English speakers. Some of them are elderly with limited opportunities to learn English, many of them are eager to learn and seek out classes only to find they cannot afford the tuition or the classes are full. Others, and I have known numbers of them, struggle to learn as much as they can while they clean the houses, pick the fruit, and care for the children of the more affluent.
I think I might not so much mind the misguided efforts of arrogant lawmakers, if in their haste to proclaim English as our national language, they also passed laws to facilitate that learning for non-English speaking adults. Fortunately we do have programs in place for school age children, but even today there is a national movement to deny many of these children education services.
You state that all of our prior immigrants learned to speak English, surely you know that is not so. Certainly you are correct that being unable to speak English does hinder those who need to make a living here. I don't think you actually meant to say English is an American invention--sometimes even those of us who speak it don't get it right all the time.
I do see products with Spanish as well as English instructions, but unless they are imports, Donovan, Your contention that those who don't speak English are rude and make everyone cater to them is a pretty narrow view of the conditions of many non-English speakers.
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: Donovan Arnold
To: Sue Hovey ; keely emerinemix ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Words Bring Pause
Now the good Senator can go to Somalia and give the same speech to them, as they too have also elected to make Somalia and English their official languages.
I think helping those that cannot speak English in this country is wonderful. However, I think not learning to speak the language simple keeps those individuals down in society and hinders society as well.
In the sheltered world of Northern Idaho, Spanish is by far a second language, but in many other parts of the west, in an increasing number of places, English is the second language and most the people on the street are speaking Spanish, not English, the signs are in Spanish and if you do not speak Spanish you often find yourself unable to ask the person next to you or an employee at a business a question.
Even instructions on some products are primarily in Spanish, with English as the second language.
The US is a nation of immigrants, Spanish, German, French, Italian Greek, Swedish, Irish, Arabic, Asian, African, Eskimo, etc. But they all learned to speak English. It isn't favoritism, it even an American invention, it isn't superiority, and it certainly isn't the most sensible, logical, or easiest language to master, but they all, all, even the poor ones, learned to speak the language. They didn't try to change the country to their culture and language, they added too it, they didn't destroy it, ignore it, or disrespect it.
In the United States we speak English. To refuse to speak the language of the people in the country you choose to live in is rude and disrespectful to those in it.
I have the deepest respect for the people that come here and learn the language, but I have nothing but spite for those that come here and refuse to help out and make everyone cater to them.
Best,
Donovan
"If you speak English, Press 1 now. If you don't speak English, learn it, then press 1."
Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com> wrote:
Edgar Malepeai is a very special person and a remarkable teacher. One of
the impacts of legislation such as this is the harm in inflicts on people
who speak English (in Edgar's case it's beautifully spoken and articulate as
well) as a second language (or third or fourth) because there is the implied
message that some languages are superior to others.
Some of you may not appreciate the message "numero dos, para Espanol" but
there are those of us who sometimes push button two just to make our minds
remember what we used to know pretty well.
Closing with a non sequitur: When Governor George Bush told Texans he was
learning Spanish, Jim Hightower responded, "Now he can be bi-ignorant."
Sue Hovey
----- Original Message -----
From: "keely emerinemix"
To: ;
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Words Bring Pause
> Thanks to Sen. Malepeai for his clearheaded and rational comments against
> a
> divisive and unnecessary bill.
>
> keely
>
>
> From: "Tom Hansen"
> To: "Vision 2020"
> Subject: [Vision2020] Words Bring Pause
> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 14:42:03 -0700
>
> >From today's (March 11, 2007) Spokesman Review with a very special thanks
> to
> State Senator Edgar Malepeai -
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Words Bring Pause
>
> The Idaho Senate voted 20-15 in favor of Senate Bill 1172, declaring
> English
> to be the official language of Idaho, in a debate that took a personal
> turn.
>
> "It's not for shutting people out, but bringing people in," Sen. Mel
> Richardson, R-Idaho Falls, lead sponsor of the bill, told the Senate.
>
> Sen. Edgar Malepeai, D-Pocatello, said quietly, "Looking around the
> chamber,
> I think I'm probably the only one that has English as a second language."
> Malepeai recalled that his late father and uncles served proudly in the
> U.S.
> military. "They spoke very, very broken English, but they were proud
> American Samoans," Malepeai said. Democracy and freedom "is what unifies
> people in this country," he said, "not the English language." A hush fell
> in
> the Senate after Malepeai's comments, and no one else debated the bill.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "I love my country but fear my government."
>
> - Author Unknown
>
>
>
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