[Vision2020] [Spam 5.64] Re: Atheists Fight Back

[lfalen]

Thanks Paul. Good statement.

Roger
-----Original message-----
From: Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:11:01 -0700
To: Moscow Vision 2020 vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Spam 5.64] Re: [Vision2020] Atheists Fight Back

> I don't like "militant" atheism any more than I like "fundamentalist" 
> Christianity or Islam.
> 
> We have got to strike a balance somewhere.  I have a lot of respect for 
> the atheist camp that basically says "there is no reason to believe in a 
> God or gods or angel or faeries or unicorns, so I won't - and I suggest 
> you don't either".  This differs from the "every person on this earth 
> who believes this tripe needs to be taught that it is all crap" camp.  
> Freedom of religion is an important foundation of our country, we must 
> respect it. 
> 
> I think atheism suffers from the same problem that some fundamentalist 
> religions do.  Atheists (like fundies) think they *know* the answers.  
> The atheists should know better.  They respect science, and should be 
> aware of it's limitations.  There's a massive gulf between data not 
> leading in a given direction and data proving something unmeasurable and 
> unknowable is false.
> 
> What I can get behind is enforcing the barriers where they ought to be.  
> Keep religion out of science.  If you don't like what science comes up 
> with as scientists observe nature and pose hypotheses and test them, 
> that's your prerogative.  But watering down science to fudge the answers 
> you want is not the answer.  On the flip side, don't try to dictate (or 
> even pressure or browbeat into people) what you think they ought to 
> believe. 
> 
> Paul
> 
> Tom Hansen wrote:
> > >From today's (June 9, 2007) Spokesman Review -
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/yojg6g
> > "Essayist Christopher Hitchens' book, "God Is Not Great: How Religion
> > Poisons Everything," climbed to the best-seller lists soon after it was
> > published last month, and his debates with clergy are drawing crowds at
> > every stop."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Atheists fight back 
> > Books critical of faith climb best-seller list
> >
> > Rachel Zoll 
> > Associated Press
> > June 9, 2007
> >
> > The time for polite debate is over. Militant, atheist writers are making an
> > all-out assault on religious faith and reaching the top of the best-seller
> > list - a sign of widespread resentment among nonbelievers over the influence
> > of religion in the world.
> >
> > Christopher Hitchens' "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything"
> > has sold briskly ever since it was published last month - reaching No. 1 on
> > The New York Times' nonfiction list last week - and his debates with clergy
> > are drawing crowds at every stop.
> >
> > Sam Harris was a little-known graduate student until he wrote the
> > phenomenally successful "The End of Faith" and its follow-up, "Letter to a
> > Christian Nation."
> >
> > Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" and Daniel Dennett's "Breaking the
> > Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon" struck similar themes - and sold.
> >
> > "There is something like a change in the Zeitgeist," Hitchens says, noting
> > that sales of his latest book far outnumber those for his earlier work that
> > had challenged faith.
> >
> > "There are a lot of people, in this country in particular, who are fed up
> > with endless lectures by bogus clerics and endless bullying."
> >
> > Richard Mouw, president of Fuller Theological Seminary, a prominent
> > evangelical school in Pasadena, Calif., says the books' success reflect a
> > new vehemence in the atheist critique.
> >  
> > "I don't believe in conspiracy theories," Mouw says, "but it's almost like
> > they all had a meeting and said, 'Let's counterattack.' "
> >
> > The war metaphor is apt. The writers see themselves in a battle for reason
> > in a world crippled by superstition. In their view, Muslim extremists,
> > Jewish settlers and Christian right activists are from the same mold, using
> > fairy tales posing as divine scripture to justify their lust for power.
> >
> > Bad behavior in the name of religion is behind some of the most dangerous
> > global conflicts and the terrorist attacks in the United States, London and
> > Madrid, the atheists say.
> >
> > As Hitchens puts it: "Religion kills."
> >
> > The Rev. Douglas Wilson, senior fellow in theology at New Saint Andrews
> > College, a Christian school in Moscow, Idaho, sees the books as a sign of
> > secular panic. Nonbelievers are finally realizing that, contrary to what
> > they were taught in college, faith is not dead, he says.
> >
> > Indeed, believers far outnumber nonbelievers in America.
> >
> > In a 2005 AP-Ipsos poll on religion, only 2 percent of U.S. respondents said
> > they did not believe in God. Other surveys concluded that 14 percent of
> > Americans consider themselves secular, a term that can include believers who
> > say they have no religion.
> >
> > Religious challenges to teaching evolution are still having an impact, 80
> > years after the infamous Scopes "Monkey" trial. The dramatic growth in home
> > schooling and private Christian schools is raising questions about the
> > future of public education. Religious leaders have succeeded in putting some
> > limits on stem-cell research.
> >
> > And the recent U.S. Supreme Court decision upholding a national ban on a
> > procedure critics call "partial-birth abortion" - the first federal curbs on
> > an abortion procedure in a generation - came after decades of religious
> > lobbying for conservative justices.
> >
> > "It sort of dawned on the secular establishment that they might lose here,"
> > says Wilson, who is debating Hitchens on christianitytoday.com and has
> > written the book "Letter from a Christian Citizen" in response to Harris.
> >
> > "All of this is happening precisely because there's a significant force that
> > they have to deal with."
> >
> > Some say liberal outrage over President Bush's policies is partly fueling
> > sales of the latest books, even though Hitchens famously supported the
> > invasion of Iraq.
> >
> > To those Americans, the nation's born-again president is the No. 1
> > representative of the religious right activists who helped put him in
> > office. Bush's critics see his Christian faith behind some of his worst
> > decisions and his stubborn defense of the war in Iraq.
> >
> > Fuller's Mouw says conservative Christians are partly to blame for the
> > backlash. The rhetoric of some evangelical leaders has been so strident, he
> > says, they have invited the rebuke.
> >
> > "We have done a terrible job of presenting our perspective as a plausible
> > world view that has implications for public life and for education,
> > presenting that in a way that is sensitive to the concerns of people who may
> > disagree," says Mouw.
> >
> > "Whatever may be wrong with Christopher Hitchens' attacks on religious
> > leaders, we have certainly already matched it in our attacks."
> >
> > Given the popularity of the anti-religion books so far, publishers are
> > expected to roll out even more in the future.
> >
> > Lynn Garrett, senior religion editor for Publishers Weekly, says religion
> > has been one of the fastest-growing categories in publishing in the last 15
> > years, and the rise of books by atheists is "the flip-side of that."
> >
> > "It was just the time," she says, "for the atheists to take the gloves off."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >
> > Tom Hansen
> > Moscow, Idaho
> >
> >
> > ******************************************
> >
> > "People walking up to you
> > Singing glory hallelujah
> > And they're trying to sock it to you
> > In the name of the Lord."
> >
> > - Joe South (from "Games People Play")
> >  
> > ******************************************
> >
> >
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